The Hidden Wound: How Moral Injury Isn't Just PTSD and Why It Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:00

And thank you again for joining me in another episode of the Doc Hugh Show. And today's episode we have Larry Dr. Larry Blant here in Navy chaplain with 16 years experience and 25 years experience as a local minister before entering the military. Larry is seeking to help others and they're going to be back from PTSD and more injury. Larry

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:33

also seeking to help the church wake up and recognize these issues and address them from a pastoral perspective. Larry, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

It's my pleasure. Thank you for the invitation.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Can you share a bit about your past from 25 years in pastoral ministry through police fire chapter to serving as a Navy chaplain in combat in Helmand, Province, Afghanistan?

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Sure. Well, just about myself. I was born in, I was actually born in East St. Louis, Illinois, right across the river from St. Louis. Uh grew up in a little town called Cahokia, Illinois, and was very active in my church growing up. Went to college to uh Murray State University in uh western Kentucky. That's where I met my bride. Oh gosh. We started dating 43 years ago, if you can believe that. And in June, we'll we will uh in June we will have been married 40 years. And uh

From Pastor To First Responder Chaplain

SPEAKER_00 1:40

I I'm just I'm just amazed that she hasn't smothered me in my sleep. Uh I've definitely given her a cause, I'll tell you that. Uh so I was a music major at Murray, uh, was a piano major and felt the call to be a minister. Specifically at that time, I felt the call to be a worship pastor and an associate pastor. And so once I graduated college, then I went to Southern Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, and got my master's in church music and started down the road of being an associate pastor and did that in several churches for 25 years, ending up in Lincoln, Nebraska. When we were in Lincoln, we had some firefighters and police officers in the congregation. And one day they approached me after church and they just said, Hey, we think you have a great temperament to be a chaplain. Would you consider being a chaplain for the city? Um, you know, on a volunteer basis. And so I asked my senior, my senior pastor if he had any issue with it, which he didn't. And so I started down that route. And for the next next eight years, I was one of the volunteer police fire chaplains for the city of Lincoln, Nebraska. Eventually uh ended up running the ministry for the city. I became the senior chaplain, really enjoyed it. It was it was a blessing to be able to walk into the office of the mayor or the police chief or the fire chief and just say, you know, how's your day going? How can I best pray for you? And to honestly just right there in their office, lift up a prayer for their leadership of the city. And that was that was an immense privilege, plus being able to work with the first responders and the other chaplains, and then being able to help citizens of Lincoln quite often on their worst day. Um things are are happening, and that was great. And then in 2007, I went to a uh leadership conference or a training conference on chaplaincy from my denomination. My wife went with me, and it was there that God kind of started planting in my heart the idea of military chaplaincy. And kind of like Moses at the Burning Bush, I tried to tell God all the reasons why he couldn't possibly be right. And with that, you know, I thought I came up with three great reasons like why God couldn't possibly be right about calling me to military chaplain. And uh, one by one, God knocked them down. And the first one was I was already too old. In 2007, I was already past the cutoff of what they wanted for chaplains to be. And the very next session I go to, they were talking about how at that point in time the Navy and the Army were really hurting for chaplains, so they were willing to waive the age requirement. So that was the first thing he knocked down. The second thing was I didn't have the right master's degree. At that point in time, I had two master's degrees, but neither one of them was a master of divinity, which is what my denomination and the military wanted you to have. Um again, the next session, uh, they started talking about these newfangled things called online accredited schools. Now they're everywhere. But back in 2007, that was a new thing. Uh, and so they were talking about these online accredited seminaries where you don't have to leave your ministry and be able to get a fully accredited education, one that the military was willing to accept. And I thought, oh wow, he just knocked down the second one. Then uh the third one, I thought I really had him because at that point in time I I weighed over 300 pounds. And God came back and said, There's this thing called diet and exercise. Why don't you do that? And so I was there and I said, Okay, God, if this is what you want me to do, I will do. But I really would like for you to tell my wife, I really don't want to have this conversation. I don't want to rock this poor woman's world who has supported me in in ministry and everything else. And and she had a really good job with the Lincoln Public School System as a sign language interpreter for for deaf children in the school district. So that evening we were going back to the hotel room, um, and which is our thing to do, is we'll go back and we'll talk about how what we learned that day, what we felt like God was teaching us that day. And we're going back to the room, and I'm I'm preparing to have this major conversation and say, honey, your crazy old husband wants to run off and join the Navy, you know. And we get back to the room and she literally spins around, puts her finger in my face, and says, I think God's calling you to military chaplaincy.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Well.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

And uh, you know, we pray for things and then we're shocked when God answers. But we stayed up late that night talking about what all this meant, and I'll never forget her saying, if this is what God has called us to do, how could we do anything else? So we started down that road. When we got back, we had a big talk with our kids and my mother who lived with us at the time, and everybody was very supportive. That Christmas, she bought me hours with a personal trainer, or as I kind of like to say, she paid a 22-year-old to try to kill me. It felt that way at first. But I I told the young man that this is the heightweight standards that I need to be at, and he developed a plan. And over the next year and a half, I went back to school, got my Master of Divinity, and lost 110 pounds. And then in 2009, came into the Navy as a 45-year-old chaplain, and then a little over a year later, found myself with a Marine Infantry Battalion in Hellman Province, Afghanistan.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

What was that what was that like that experiencing being in Afghanistan as a chaplain?

SPEAKER_00 7:53

It was several things all at once. It was terrifying, it was humbling being with Marines who were fighting for our country, for our way of life. It was also, believe it or not, peaceful. And what I mean by that is I I felt like I was right where God wanted me to be. I felt like I was right in the middle of his will as I ministered to the Marines and the sailors there. Because we were

Ministry On The Front Lines

SPEAKER_00 8:20

we were on the front lines. We were getting it. We were having contact with the enemy every day, and we weren't in a support position. Not that that's a bad thing, but but we were we were put out there to make contact with the enemy, to uh take over that particular area that we were assigned. And I moved about the battle space, I was outside of the wire five days a week doing that. And what I mean by outside the wire, I realize that's a military phrase. On the weekends, I would be at our combat outpost, or COP as we called it short, um, and which was a relatively safe position. Every now and again we did get indirect fire, but then Monday through Friday, I would be visiting the different rifle companies and the different battle positions, moving from position to position with either a resupply chain or with a patrol or something like that, bringing services and counseling to the Marines and sailors during that time.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

You know, and one thing I obviously you mentioned that you're, you know, certified as a chaplain and you have your captaincy uh credentials. One thing I didn't mention was that you have a proven track record dealing with PTSD and and moral injury. Can you tell us the difference between the two? Because even like I, you know, first, you know, talking to you on Padma, I had asked you, because I n I have never heard of it. What is moral injury?

SPEAKER_00 9:55

Yeah, I'd be happy to. So most people has a most people have a pretty good idea what PTSD is, and that is fear-based trauma. It's trauma that happened to us where we were afraid for our life, we were afraid of great harm, or maybe we were afraid of something happening to someone

PTSD Versus Moral Injury

SPEAKER_00 10:15

else, especially someone close to us that causes trauma to us. Uh, moral injury is kind of PTSD's evil twin. Moral injury is when we do something, sometimes under the direction of someone in authority over us, or we fail to prevent something, and the result of which goes against everything that we believe, morally, ethically, and especially spiritually, to the point that it just emotionally and mentally and spiritually breaks us, and we become absolutely consumed with guilt and with shame, feeling that maybe somehow we have been corrupted by this action that we did. And or as one, as one Marine said to me, chaps, it just feels like my soul has shattered.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

And how how would you deal? You know, if, like you said, the Marine came up to you and said, My soul's been shattered, obviously that's probably a moral injury type of comment and whatnot, how would you deal with him and how how you know what type of you know conversation would you ha you have with him in that situation?

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Well, the the first thing that I would do is I would give them a safe place to share their story. Most people with moral injury, whether it happens in the military or maybe it happened in a medical situation, because we're seeing more and more healthcare providers with moral injury, especially those during the COVID area. But they may be first responders. There's several different avenues that that someone can experience moral injury. But the first thing I would do is give them a safe place to hear their story. Because these individuals, so many times, because they are so consumed with guilt and shame, they pull back from everything. They pull back from their family, they pull back from their friends, they pull back from their faith, uh, because they don't feel like anymore they are lovable or even forgivable, even by God. Um and so if they have the strength to be able to say something to me, like, you know, chaps I feel like my soul is shattered, or um, you know, forgiveness is good for other people, but I just don't think it applies to me. More, more than likely, they have never shared the story of what got them there. And you've got to be able to have a safe opportunity for them to be able to do that without any kind of condemnation. You know, no, no shocking reaction, no wincing, no words of condemnation, but just words of support, you know, like that that sounds like it was a terrible situation. And sometimes the situation that they were in, there's no good answer. There's only uh, you know, there's only bad or worse in what they had to do. And so with that, allowing them to begin to tell their story is that first step in a path to restoration for them. How have these experiences shaped your understanding of hitting pain in the lives of people You know, I was talking with someone the other day, and you know, my theology of suffering has definitely evolved over the years. And now what I realize through experiencing my own PTSD from combat and from counseling marine sailors and coast guardsmen over the last 16 years, what I understand now is

Suffering, Combat Stress, And COVID Loss

SPEAKER_00 14:02

God doesn't always prevent our suffering. But what he does do is he is willing to be with us in our suffering so that we don't have to go through it alone. And that's one thing I want to try to get across to those with PTSD and moral injury is that you don't have to do this alone. God wants to be with you through this. God wants to provide you a path of restoration to where no you may not be like you were before, but that doesn't mean that you can't have a sense of restoration, a sense of healing, so that you're able to move forward from that point and be able to uh uh have a life that you can be proud of and happy with.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

You know. You mentioned that your book books are the first settling with training and clinical pastoral, education, suicide progressing, and crisis care. What personal or professional moment first made you realize that some rooms go deeper than what we typically call trauma or PTSD?

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Obviously, there was my own experience in Afghanistan, but really and truthfully, beginning kind of beginning with the experience I had with the police department and and some of the things that I saw there, because we would respond to we would respond to deaths. I saw a lot of death with the police department. Anyone who, if there was a death that, I guess unattended. If there was an unattended death, a chaplain always responded to that. And what we would do is we would become a liaison between the police department and the family so that the police were able to properly investigate the death and determine was it accidental, was it natural causes, or was it indeed a homicide? So I saw a lot of pain and suffering with those families with that, then moving on to the military in my own experience of PTSD from combat, then moving on to when I one of the things the chaplain does before they can work in a hospital is they have to get what's four units of clinical pastoral education. And so I was fortunate enough to be accepted into the Navy CPE program and did that in 2020 in San Diego. However, what were we going through in 2020 and 21? We were going through COVID. And so uh doing CPE at the height of COVID. Um so I did a residency at Naval Hospital San Diego, and I did a residency at the VA in San Diego. And so when I was at the Naval Hospital, I was actually the ICU chaplain. And imagine being an ICU chaplain at the height of COVID. We were losing one to two people daily in that ICU to COVID. And dealing with the families, sometimes, especially, you know, you'd have retired military there, and you'd have the husband die one month, and then the next month the wife passed away. And then we're dealing with the family, and that actually happened more than once while I was the chaplain for the ICU. And then you're also dealing with the medical providers who just are so frustrated and so angry that they can't stop the spread of this virus and losing people that they no longer feel like what they're doing is valid. Um and and trying to keep their head in the game. And then going over to the VA. So I would work Monday at the VA hospital and Wednesday and Friday, I would work at a PTSD domiciliary. And what they did, and it's called the Aspire Center. And if anybody in the VA is listening, please, please, please replicate this program in other places. Um and what they did was they took homeless veterans off the streets of San Diego who were diagnosed with PTSD. They housed them for six months, and in those six months, um, they addressed their addiction, they addressed their PTSD, they addressed the moral injury, they helped them get clean and stay clean, and then they helped them find jobs and find housing so that they didn't go back out on the street. And the great thing is, is they had an 85% success rate. And they still do. And so one thing that I really enjoyed there was the chaplain just wasn't a nice face who led Bible studies and stuff like that. The chaplain had a seat at the table in setting up the plan to address every single resident. And having that equal seat at the table was amazing and really helped me in my in my growth as a chaplain, exercising my pastoral authority, but also better understanding PTSD and moral injury and what to do about it. And then as I came here to 29 Palms, California, which is where I'm currently at, after PTSD, I came to be the chaplain for the hospital at the Marine Corps base here. And my thinking was why are we waiting until these people are homeless on the streets to address their issues? Not that we're not having great mental health providers trying to do exactly that, but spiritually, why are we waiting for this? And so uh I approached the leadership of my hospital and I said, you know, what if we started addressing these issues right here, right now? And I I would partner up with a mental health provider, and we would use uh a program that the VA already has and was more than willing to let us have for free, and tweak it a little bit for active duty, and then we would run these eight-week courses here, and maybe we might be able to save some careers, some families, even some lives. And so we did. We started doing that in the fall of 22, and it's been very successful ever since.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

And what is the name of that flog in?

SPEAKER_00 20:29

It's called be it's called Building Spiritual Strength. And there's several of these. If you're a veteran, uh I would you're anywhere within a drivable distance of a VA, and most veterans are. Uh, I would encourage talk to your chaplains at your local VA and ask them if they have either a building spiritual strength group or a real group. Both of

Building Spiritual Strength In Practice

SPEAKER_00 20:52

them deal with PTSD and moral injury and do it very successfully.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

And you mentioned earlier about that one program that you were talking about involved in, and you said that they needed to replicate it to other VA across the country. Is that is that not is that only in California?

SPEAKER_00 21:16

To the best of my knowledge, that San Diego VA is the only one that has a program like that. I am hopeful that it would be replicated in other places. But I do know that when I was there, we had veterans from other locations across the United States who actually their families would, as a last ditch effort, collect money to fly them to San Diego so that they could come into that program because it wasn't replicated to our knowledge anywhere else.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Why is um why is um more trauma described as a shore wound or flash uh Rather than just an emotional one.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Because I think it goes deeper than that. I think it goes deeper than emotions. I think it actually touches the spiritual. Because it is it it's everything that a person may stand for. Because it feels like once once that egregious happens, that egregious action happens, whether they did it or maybe whether they failed to prevent it, they feel like there's a rift between them and something bigger than themselves, or a rift between them and God that can't be repaired. Now, I'm a chaplain, I deal with the spiritual, I believe that those rifts can be repaired, that God wants to repair them. But because that individual is so broken and so consumed with guilt and shame, they aren't able to see past that.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

For those that are dealing with past traumas, you know, and past you know, issues with their life, and maybe they've been diagnosed with PTSD, and maybe that's this is their first time hearing about moral wounds, and maybe someone will be listening to this, and they'll be like, hey, that might be me. I may have a moral wound. What what do what do they do?

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Well, again, like I said earlier, they need to find a safe place to tell their story. That's the first step. And that's one reason why I'm working so hard to try to tell the church about that. Most pastors have a pretty good handle on what PTSD is, but moral injury is not something that's really well known outside of the mental health or really the healthcare or military chaplaincy arenas. So most pastors really aren't that aware of it. As I've traveled around,

What To Do With A Moral Wound

SPEAKER_00 23:56

been assigned to different places within the Navy and the Marine Corps and the Coast Guard, because Navy chaplains serve all three, I would go to my local pastor and I would say, you know, what is, do you know what PTSD is? And most of the time they could give me a pretty decent answer to it. But then if I said, Can you tell me what moral injury is, most of the time they would give me kind of a deer and headlights look. And they said, No, I really don't know what that is. But then when I explained what moral injury is, every single time they could say, I know somebody that that fits to a T. And so what we need to do is what I want to do is to help the church, to help these pastors, and then to help the church learn how to be that safe space so that once these veterans or whoever who has these moral injuries are able to have a safe place to tell their story, then you begin walking with them on that path to restoration.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

So b moral injury and PTSD affect both uh veterans and both and those in combat and everyday regular people.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and and a person can have both PTSD and moral injury, and it's been very interesting in that some studies indicate that if a person has both PTSD and moral injury, unless the moral injury is addressed, the PTSD will not get any better. And so some people who are very resistant or don't seem to be getting any better with PTSD, it might be because they may have moral injury and it's not being addressed.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Moral injury a new concept or a new, you know, new mental health issue that people are not aware of. That's why so many people don't know about it.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

It's relatively now, I think moral injury has been around since biblical time. I think there's examples of it in scripture, from King Saul to King David to his general Joab to Peter, Judas, and Paul. I think you could you can make an argument for all of them for a case for moral injury, with it resulting in something bad happening or restoration. It it's been around, but the term moral injury was really coined in 1994 by Dr. Jonathan Shea, who was a mental health professional working with uh the Veterans Administration, and he was working with Vietnam veterans, and he noticed that the the definition for PTSD was not really fitting these veterans he was working with. And so he he was really the one that developed the concept of moral injury and gave it that title in a book that he called he wrote called Achilles in Vietnam. And what he did was he compared the actions uh of Vietnam veterans with Greek tragedies. And it was amazing how much is this the actions were the same. So, and his argument was this has been around forever. We just need to start recognizing it now. And so, really, that kind of started the ball rolling, but it's really only been in about the last 10 years or so that it's started to get attention.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

What are some um practical ways pastors and leaders in the church can recognize the kinds of moral injury in their congregation or even in maybe even in their leadership teams?

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Well, obviously they need to be sensitive to things that could indicate moral injury, and that could be maybe somebody is overcommitted, but yet they're not addressing their own spiritual needs. They're they're trying to just stay busy in the church, but they're really not growing. And it may be because they're they're trying to ignore their own hurt by staying busy, or it may be you'll notice somebody who you may consider to be backsliding, but the question is, are they really backsliding? Or is this moral injury in action and they're pulling back? Maybe you'll notice somebody who is working, but they're not taking part of communion or Lord's Supper, and that's because they don't feel like that they're in a right spot. Or maybe they might be saying phrases like, forgiveness is good for everyone else, but it just doesn't apply to me, or God could never forgive what I did in uniform, or something along those lines. It's a it's about education and learning. And I think once pastors begin to understand that, then they can begin to address it's been addressed with a quick and easy response that quite frankly just doesn't do the job. Sometimes when someone comes forward in the church and they say, Well, I've done something, I need to be forgiven, but I just don't know how I can be. The pastor prays with them, gives them a scripture verse, kind of pats them on the back and says, You're good now. It takes more than that with moral injury. With moral injury, it's going to take a while to work with them. It's always good to pray with them, it's always good to share scripture, but the road back for moral injury is not a quick path. It's not it's not, it's a marathon, not a sprint.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Do they have the knowledge or the ability to help people with moral injury, or should they be seeking out, you know, a therapist or, you know, somebody from, you know, if they're in the military, someone from a VA hospital, or is it okay for them to speak to their pastor?

SPEAKER_00 29:53

I think it's great for them to speak to their pastor. I also think that it's not a bad idea to also be working with a mental health professional. But I also think

Pastors And Faith-Based Mental Health Care

SPEAKER_00 30:04

that though that the mental health professional that they work with should be somebody who has a faith. You know, you have mental health professionals who do not have a faith, and everything for them is scientific. I would be careful about going to someone like that. But I I would encourage them to both speak with their pastor who can provide that spiritual counsel, but also speak with a mental health professional, but who also has a faith of their own so that they can get that clinical help. But we know that that clinical help is also going to be grounded in things that honor Scripture. So drawing from your years as a chaplain and counselor, what have you seen, where have what have you seen grace accomplish in the deepest places of people's pain that techniques or programs alone cannot well as I think about I think about some of the people that I've had the privilege to be able to minister and work with, I can think of one gentleman in particular who came to our group, our our building spiritual strength group, and he came very broken. It was funny, he was working late one night in his office, and

A Story Of Grace And Family Repair

SPEAKER_00 31:15

one of the chaplains on base, he was he's a retiree who works here at the base. And he was working late one night, and one of our chaplains was walking through the building, just you know, providing encouragement to people and for others saying, you know, you really need to be going home. And um, and he came across this gentleman, and in the conversation with the gentleman, the chaplain said, you know, I think this group would be beneficial for you. And the man came. And the first night he came, I looked at uh I looked at the the psychiatrist that I was working with who helped me lead the group, and we kind of looked at each other, and afterward we said, we don't know if this guy's gonna come back. Because he came, he was very gruff, he really almost grunted versus spoke. Um he just had a big frown on his face, and he, you know, he as the veteran, as the active duty and him as a retiree began to kind of share their stories, you know, he was very cautious about what he shared. And and we just really weren't sure whether or not he was going to come back. But then the next week he came back. And what was even more interesting was, you know, as a part of this class, you know, we give them a workbook, we give them assignments every week. And what was interesting was he took the workbook to his VA counselor and said, this is the program I'm going to be doing for the next eight weeks. And the counselor, who I thought what she did was brilliant, was she looked at what we were going to be going over for the next eight weeks, and she structured her counseling sessions so that she hit the very same topics with him so that it just got reinforced. Um and and I I I thought she was just absolutely brilliant for doing that. But then week by week we started to notice these changes in him as as he started to trust the people in the group more, as he did the assignments that we gave him, as he started to reconnect with his faith. Um and then by the end of the by the end of the eight weeks, he declared to us, by the end of the time, he had told us everything, everything that he had done during several different deployments that he felt very, very guilty about. Um and there are things that you do in war that you wouldn't normally do. But sometimes we do things in war, and then people slap us on the back, and we're like, Why why are you slapping me on the back for doing this? This is a terrible thing. So as he did that, and as we listened to him without judgment, as we supported him, as he began to reconnect with his faith, that final night he said to us, I've made a decision. And he said, For 20 years, I have been terrified for my wife to know what happened during my deployments because I was afraid she would feel like I married a monster and she would leave me. And so for 20 years he had kept his wife at a distance, not sharing his whole life with her, not sharing his whole feelings, and and they'd pretty much been roommates coexisting in the same house. And then he had done this with his children as well. He had kept them at a distance because he was afraid that his children would see him as a monster and not want anything more to do. So he would rather have a fragmented existence with the members of his family than he was afraid if he shared everything, he would lose them entirely. And so that final night, he said to us, I'm going to I'm going to sit down with my wife and I'm going to tell her, and I'm going to take the chance and just share with her why I've been so distant. And so uh I saw him a few weeks later. Matter of fact, I saw him just a few weeks ago. And and I couldn't believe the change in him. Uh he has now he has lost probably 50, 60 pounds because he's no longer eating his dress. He sat down with his wife and he shared with her why he had been so distant since coming back from the deployments, what had happened during those deployments. And instead of putting him at a distance or considering him a monster, his wife showed unconditional love and hugged him and loved on him and said, I have my husband back. And now their marriage is better than ever. He's reconnected to his faith, he's reconnected to his children. He's now smiling all the time. He's now the jokester in the office instead of the grumpy guy everyone avoids. Some of some of his people, his co-workers have actually come to me and said, What did you do to him? Because this guy is now an absolute joy to be around. You know, he laughs, he tells jokes, he slaps people on the back. He's a tall gentleman, he's very tall, but he walked hunched over. Now he walks standing straight. You could just see it not only in his attitude, but also just how he carries himself. And he would tell you that that while he he still has the memories of what happened, he has been able to work through those and has rebuilt a relationship with God and with his family. And to see that restoration has just been an absolute joy to watch.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yeah. As we get rid of Andy, I always like to ask my guest what what one word of encouragement that you would like to give to my audience.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

I would say that through PTSD and moral injury, if you feel broken, if you feel like you're broken beyond repair, I want to encourage you that you're not. God has a path of restoration for you. God has people out there who want to love on you unconditionally

Hope, Encouragement, And Closing

SPEAKER_00 37:40

and and help you walk this path back. And I would encourage you, whether it's your pastor, whether it's your local congregation, whether it's a veterans group, find somebody who will non-judgmentally listen to your story and then start that path back because God loves you and wants to have a relationship with you.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Amen. Well, I love you, Plant. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. We greatly appreciate having you.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

It's been my pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Well, guys and girls, thank you so much for coming on for listening. And please go and go and send even leave a review for this podcast and for this interview. And if you know anybody that's dealing with PTSD or more angry, please share this episode with them and share Larry's link with them in the show notes. And until next time, God bless. Bye bye.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

God bless.