The Surprising Link Between Narcissistic Abuse and Distorted Views of God

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello everyone, thank you again for joining me on another episode of the Dorsey Us show. On today's episode we have someone doing incredibly important and deeply transformative work in the mental health space. Joining us is Taylor Williams, the founder of Trinity Trauma Therapy. A practice dedicated to helping individuals heal from some of the most complex and often min misunderstood forms of trauma, especially those living in narcissistic abuse and religious experiences, through a powerful new science-based approach called E D E N D R Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing Teller help her clients move beyond service-level coping and natural processes and release the pain stored in the body and mind. Her work is centered on the belief that people are not broken or rather responding to unresolved experiences that can be uh that can be healed with the right tools and support. If you ever struggle with feeling unseen, questioning your own story, or trying to break cycles from your past, this conversation is going to resonate deeply. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Oh, thank you, Dorsey, and thank you for that beautiful introduction. That was so kind.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Tell us a little bit about, you know, your background and what you do and how you got started and and what you do.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Absolutely. So I I've always felt drawn to the mental health field. And then I really, really became passionate about

Why Little Traumas Still Matter

SPEAKER_01 2:00

taking a more trauma-focused approach. It just seems to be unfortunately an experience we all share. We've all been through negative experiences that can really stick with us. But within that, I was really, really seeing a need for providers who were willing to recognize that trauma is not always stuff that's going to make news headlines. And so that's where I've really felt God just show me, call me to. That sort of small, what we call little T traumas, where it's a series of many experiences. It could be bullying, being isolated, negative things people have said to you, those small experiences that can really add up over time to shape how we how we see our identity.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Did something happen in your path that you wanted to focus on this? Or how did you how did you know growing up that you wanted to go into this?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

When I was in college studying psychology, I was really, really struggling with transitioning from living at home with my family to being on my own in another state. And so I was actually helped by psychology students in the doctorate and master's program at my school. And it wasn't that anything had really happened. It was just I realized in that moment didn't really know my identity in Jesus. I didn't, I was really believing what the world was saying about me and uh and what had been sort of put on me in childhood and adulthood and through no fall of anyone's. I really felt seen and heard, even though nothing horrific, no classic trauma, thank goodness had happened to me. So I think it was with the empathy and compassion I was really shown in college, I just felt really convicted to show that to others, where don't wait till things have to get really, really bad, or don't be comparing what you've been through to others to go seek help. You're you're worth being seen and being helped. Um so yeah, it goes back to college for me, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Now you mentioned, I mentioned in the in your intro that you focus on um narcissistic abuse and even religious experiences. What kind of religious experiences do you see, you know, your clients or those that you're helping, what, you know, what do you see that they're going through that you're helping them with?

SPEAKER_01 4:31

So I originally thought when I was seeking a specialty within the trauma field, I originally thought God was calling me to actually minister to those who've been mistreated by religious abuse. What I've started to

Narcissism And Religious Control

SPEAKER_01 4:45

realize is that many of the individuals who will use religion, they'll use the name of Jesus, they'll use the Bible to coerce and control, are actually exhibiting narcissistic behaviors. So that's where I really sort of zoomed out and more wanted to learn about what that dynamic is that leads somebody to want to use faith as a control tactic. And so I really see narcissistic behavior as this sort of umbrella pattern that seems to happen, and within that can be religious abuse.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

How how does narcissistic abuse specifically distort someone's view of God?

SPEAKER_01 5:27

It's a really great question. It helps me to look through a spiritual lens when I am trying to explain about narcissistic abuse to my clients. And a person with narcissistic behaviors, they are really trying to maintain an image of themselves. It's a very extreme form of idolatry where they want to appear a certain way and they are willing to dehumanize others to do that. So a lot of the work I do would be with adults who've grown up in a household where one or both of the parents were trying to maintain this image of the perfect family, of the businessman, of the doting perfect mother. Um, and if that child asked questions or pushed back or challenged that image, anything could happen to cause them to get back in line. And so it's so often I see if somebody's as an adult going through a pattern of relationships where they're seeking out treat uh mistreat, or they're accidentally finding themselves in a series of narcissistic relationships. Usually it goes back to childhood where religion would have been used to help keep them in line to maintain that image. So it can be really hard to imagine God as a good father. It can be really hard to understand that you're forgivable, you're lovable, really anything with your identity in Jesus as forgiven, redeemed, loved, wanted, that was all conditional on you, upon you maintaining that image for the narcissistic person.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Now, narcissism or narcissistic is a big word. And, you know, probably a lot of people, even myself, you know, we may not fully understand what that means or what that looked like. Can you define

Defining Narcissistic Abuse And Gaslighting

SPEAKER_00 7:20

for, and I think you did in that in the pet in the last answer there, but can you define for what someone, you know, that a narcissist, what that look like and what that can be?

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Sure. So it is a diagnosable personality disorder in the DSM V. So it can actually be, or it is actually a diagnosis, but we do hear the word used a lot to describe a spectrum of behaviors. These are behaviors that are going to be characterized by a selective lack of empathy, an extreme focus on maintaining power, control, public perception. And you will see this sort of pattern of behavior that shifts between deflecting, making accusations, gaslighting, where you're questioning the reality. If somebody comes to you and says, Hey, what if why did you do that? That really hurt me. It'll be denying that that happened. So it's just this sort of dance of behaviors you'll see where it's really just this focus on not losing control, not losing the image presented publicly. And so while it is a diagnosis, and I'm careful not to diagnose anybody who's not sitting in front of me, I don't have authority or a right to do that. We can speak to a spectrum of behavior types where there's this just selfishness, there's a again, the selective lack of empathy. So that sort of ability to distance from feeling what another person might feel. Um, and any of those traits and behaviors, even if they don't meet full diagnosis, can cause a lot of pain in others.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

When did you first realize narcissistic abuse was real trauma?

SPEAKER_01 9:16

I would start to see in my clients, they would come to me seeking trauma therapy because they were exhibiting PTSD-like symptoms. So they were finding themselves avoiding certain things, having flashbacks, intrusive memories, physical symptoms where their body was just sort of echoing a sense of not feeling safe or secure. And then I would give them trauma assessments, and they would say, No, I've never been physically assaulted. No, I've never been in a car accident. They were denying the classic traumas I was taught to search for, but yet they were still exhibiting PTSD-like behaviors. And then I would do further assessment, and usually there was an individual who was really significant in their past: a parent, a boss, a coach, a romantic partner, somebody who they would start talking about them and I could see them physically presenting as traumatized. So it was really in my assessment as I began the work I feel God has called me to, where what I was taught to assess for and how I was taught to conceptualize trauma wasn't really matching the symptoms I was seeing. And so then I began to understand the importance of those smaller, invisible traumas. And I say smaller and I really shouldn't even say that, but not classically identified traumas is probably a better way to put it. Really anytime. I always want to make sure with my clients that safety and basic needs are met. So I want to see, I recommend that if there's a chronic safety issue, if you're at risk of homelessness, if your basic needs of shelter and nutrition, if that stuff is not being met, let's have those needs met first. Because part of the trauma work is visiting memories

Safety First And Not Going Alone

SPEAKER_01 11:35

where you were really unsafe and things were actually quite dark. And if you're going to be able to visit and reflect on that, those memories, I want to make sure your your most urgent needs are met. So seek safety first. Make sure your basic needs are met and you're in a place where you feel ready to really look at some of this stuff because it will feel real again in the present moment, even though we're just talking about a past memory.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Do you deal with most of your clients? Are they, you know, people of faith and Christian people, or are they or is it a wide spectrum of people that you see?

SPEAKER_01 12:19

I would say the majority are Christian and seeking a provider who's not going to affirm things outside of God's design, a provider that they won't have to explain perhaps church culture or their beliefs, they won't have to justify their beliefs. That would be probably two-thirds of the clients I work with. And then there is a third who are agnostic, atheist. I believe it's by God's grace they find me or we find each other, and they're absolutely open to working with me, and they do. And I found that in being really honest about my faith on my website and from the get-go with clients, regardless of where they stand, that they appreciate that honesty and that integrity. And then, of course, my hope is always that any of my clients who don't know Jesus come to know him. Though it's not always my role to evangelize, I operate within the role that I have authority to operate in, which would be healing their trauma. But I am always very transparent about what I believe and where I stand. And I find that even for those who aren't ready to believe or choose Jesus, there's something about that honesty and the integrity that they do value. So I'm now I encourage other professionals, any other providers. I waited too long to be really transparent about my faith and in my work. And I would say, don't make that mistake. Just be honest, be transparent. And I've found that that's been nothing but a blessing to clients and to me. And I wish I had done it sooner.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

What would you say to someone who is a Christian who may be saying, well, yes, I felt I've gone through a flu, I've gone through the trauma and everything. But, you know, my faith is in God and God's gonna help me and whatnot. God will see me through this. Will you say to them, yes, God will help you, but you still need help out? You still need help with, you know, with dealing with that trauma?

SPEAKER_01 14:21

I would say, yes, God is the healer. All things He He wills are possible and will happen. I would also add that we're not meant to exist alone. That's why I named my practice Trinity Trauma Therapy. I wanted it to include the name Trinity because we're made in the image of a triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, existing in loving communion, distinct but also one. And so we're meant to exist in loving communion with others. So whatever you do, um, yes, know that God can heal you, but don't go about it alone. I think that's an easy pitfall or an easy place to get stuck is to think we can do these things all on our own. And I don't think we're meant to. I think we're meant to have wise counsel. So whether that's a prayer group, a mentor, a pastor, a priest, a therapist, I think I am one of the many options of communion with others that we're we're called to have. So I would just say, yes, you're right, but don't go it alone.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

We mentioned in your intro the EMDR. What is for listeners who are new to it, what is EMDR and how does it actually work?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

So EMDR stands for eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing. I know it's quite a mouthful. It is a type of trauma therapy where we are using the brain's natural ability to rewire itself. So just like we are, we know spiritually,

EMDR Explained With Bilateral Stimulation

SPEAKER_01 16:00

we are not condemned by our past experiences. That's true biologically also, where you can have gone through something and thought about things a certain way, but then you can have new healthy experiences and your brain will physically rewire itself to think and act differently in the future. So we're just jump starting the process that God built into our nervous systems. So instead of just talking about what you went through with a, I'm gonna have a client tell me a little bit about it, but then I'm gonna interrupt with some sort of left, right, left, right. So I might put on their computer screen a light bar that goes left, right, left, right, and they follow with their eyes. I might have them tap themselves or have their headphones left, right, left, right? And what we're doing is stimulating the right side of the brain, the left side, right, left, right, left. And with that, we're able to change the way you experience that past event. So you don't stay stuck in those old patterns and old ways of thinking that have been so painful.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

What does ENDR practically look like for Christian survivor?

SPEAKER_01 17:10

So it will look like your we call it your adaptive memory network coming back online. So I'm I'm very clear with my clients, this is not a new age practice. There's nothing we're doing that is divination or outside of God's design. We're helping your brain heal as God designed it to heal. So what it will look like is if you had a memory where let's say you were you were really, really hurt by a parent who just repeatedly kept saying a negative something negative to you. So usually there's a belief my clients have internalized that's contrary to the gospel, like I'm unforgivable. That's a big one. We know in Christ Jesus we're all forgivable and redeemed. So it'll be this for they'll start out with this belief, I'm unforgivable, let's say, but they also truly do believe in the gospel. But there's this sort of disconnect where it doesn't feel real to them, even though they believe it to be true. And so what we'll do is we'll go and we'll visit and I'll ask them about memories where they were taught to believe they were unforgivable, interrupt it with a left, right, left, right. And what they'll usually start to experience is they'll remember times they were forgiven, or maybe their ability to recall scripture that talks about forgiveness, that starts coming back to mind. So when we quiet the lie in their memory and in their mind, the positive adaptive thinking comes back, and they'll then they'll encounter new situations where instead of assuming they're unforgivable and doubting faith, they're automatically going to think, no, no, no, I am forgivable, I'm loved, I'm wanted. So it'll look like that. The stuff you already know to be true, feeling more true, and also how you present in the future interaction with others, you're going to live from that belief that it's true.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Yeah. When you when you say left, right, left, right, are you talking about the um the brain function and the the um what the what the brain holds in that in that section of the of the of the brain, like the left, right, left side and and right side, or is it something completely different?

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Yes, I'm referring, we call it bilateral stimulation in EMDR. So it's a prompt I give that links up both sides of the brain. So yes, it is the brain, and there's a bit of mystery to it. We don't understand all of God's design, but there is something about left, right, left, right stimulation. Whether you go on a long walk, um you're rocking side to side, or having a bilateral stimulus in an EMDR session, there is something about that that gets the brain talking with both sides of itself, and we get to see healing.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Doctor, how do you help clients separate God's character from ablution ablusive religion?

SPEAKER_01 20:10

So it's a lot of in the beginning, I'm just going to be asking them to visit the memory, pairing the left, right, left, right stimulus, because I want to see what they come up with on their own before I say anything. So usually I'll start to see them um feel more at peace about this negative memory where somebody was teaching them something contrary to the gospel. And then they'll start to remember truths that they've been taught, they've read in the Bible, or they've they've they've learned. Um and then oftentimes we will have discussions where I'll just ask questions. I will say, where did you learn that? They'll usually be able to deduce that it came from somewhere not from God. So it's a lot of being quiet, asking questions, encouraging them to seek spiritual counsel and clarify these matters. But the more we can calm that negative memory and have them feel at peace about it, the clearer they can think. And I usually see people come to these conclusions on their own.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

You mentioned earlier that you're open with your clients about your faith and what you believe and everything. But overall, in a largely secular, you know, uh work, you know, work, you know, what you do mental health field, how do you how have you dealt with that when it when it comes to your faith and the challenges that you've had to deal with?

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Yes. So I am grateful to be in private practice where I can decide that my practice policies are to be congruent with God's design. So I've made the choice not to work at a secular group that would have me conducting myself in a way that would be contrary to the principles. Christian faith. So that's been one is being a solo private practice provider. And then I would also say I, in just being transparent with clients, I really take my time when somebody first reaches out and is wanting to work with me. If they're wanting me to, I can usually tell from the beginning that if they're wanting

Untangling God From Abusive Religion

SPEAKER_01 22:20

me to affirm something that is contrary to what God teaches in scripture, I'll just kindly, lovingly be honest about that. Hey, I'm not the therapist who is ever going to X, Y, and Z. And so there's been a lot of just sort of blessing and releasing potential clients to go seek another provider because I can't, I'm not necessarily feeling called to convince them otherwise. But I've learned that if I don't make little compromises in the beginning, I'm able to avoid feeling like I'm in a situation where I really am tempted to make a big compromise.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

What first boundary often signals someone is finally reclaiming freedom?

SPEAKER_01 23:05

Yes. They can be small and subtle. So I really make sure as my clients update me each week to tell them that was a big deal that you did that and to remind them. It can be being able to say no to something if a request is made of you. It could be being able to say no as a complete sentence without over-explaining yourself. It can look like less people pleasing. So my clients will become less afraid of upsetting others. I'll also see practical things, like they'll start being on time for appointments for themselves. Because what's really easy I see with my clients is to let others push boundaries on your time. So you'll answer the phone call and it'll turn into a three-hour phone call when really you didn't have three hours, but you are too afraid to say, hey, I've got to go. So I see them start taking back their time. And then I also see them able to articulate their preferences, their wants and their needs. Because when you grow up in a world or have lived in a world that revolves around pleasing a narcissistic person, your wants and needs don't matter. And you were taught to ignore that and to not think about it and just focus on the wants and needs of the person. So I'll see them start to say, you know, I stopped at a coffee shop because I wanted to. Not because I had to, not because someone told me to.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

I always like to ask my guest, as we get rid of the end here, what would what one word of encouragement that you would give to my audience?

SPEAKER_01 24:54

I would say, and I I have this on my website because I want everyone to hear this. You are not crazy. If you've been through this and you feel like you are just stuck in a pattern and that there is no hope,

Boundaries That Signal Real Freedom

SPEAKER_01 25:10

I want to say that there is hope for you in Jesus. There is healing for you. And just because you maybe haven't been through a trauma that would make the news headlines, doesn't mean that it wasn't painful. And if it hurt you, it matters to Jesus. And there is hope for you. You're not crazy and don't be alone.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Eamon, where can people find you and learn more about your work?

SPEAKER_01 25:38

The best way to connect with me is through my website, Trinity Trauma Therapy. And I'm able to work with anyone who lives in California, Arizona, or Florida. If you want help and you have mental health support and you're outside of those states, I encourage you to go to psychology today and you can refine your search for narcissistic abuse. I also recommend YouTube has great resources on healing from narcissistic abuse. But if you're in my neck of the woods, please reach out and we can talk through next steps at Trinity Traumatherapy.com.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Great. Well, Taylor, thank you so much for coming on the show. We greatly appreciate having you.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Thank you for having me, Dorsey, and I love your message of hope and joy and healing. I really appreciate being a part of it.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Thank you. Well, guys and girls, thank you so much for coming on for listening again. Please go and check out Taylor's website and her information. And please go and check out my website at www.dorcyroshow.com and review past episodes and uh subscribe and until next time. God bless. Bye bye.