The Unexpected Power of Collapse: How Failure Can Strengthen Your Faith

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Hello everyone, thank you again for joining us on another episode of the Dorset Us show. On today's episode we have Dr. Ken Cougning. He is a speaker, former sports communication entrepreneur with over thirty years of experience working with high-level athletes and active adults. His most powerful message didn't come from success, it came from collapse. After decades of building a thriving like this, Kang walked through a season where everything unraveled business, finances, and identity. In that process, his faith was split down and rebuilt on a deeper foundation. Now through his book Spiritual Endurance, faith forks in the fire, can deliver a compelling message about trusting God beyond circumstances, finding purpose, university, and becoming stronger through life's hardest struggles. That's again. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Hey Dorsey, thank you very much. I appreciate uh being here and uh appreciate the uh opportunity to speak to you and your listeners.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Can you tell us a little bit more a little bit more about you know yourself and about your background and what you do?

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Yeah, I uh uh grew up in Michigan uh but moved down to Florida in uh um you know the late late 80s after uh well mid eighties I guess. Yeah, I I was uh uh you know went to chiropractic college in uh Atlanta, Georgia, became a chiropractor in uh 94, 93, and uh opened my practice right away. And uh, you know, when I when I opened the practice, we already had one daughter, uh my daughter Beth, uh she's 33. And uh I have a son also, uh he's uh 29, and and uh so and they both live in Florida, but uh um, you know, my uh you know throughout the years I was able to you know achieve quite a bit in my practice. I uh you know grew grew a seven-figure practice. I had uh um I was the uh well I'm currently still the team chiropractor for the Pittsburgh Pirates uh for spring training. So every spring training I go up to their facility in Bradenton uh about 45 minutes away and uh treat the players, but I've been in Major League Baseball for uh going on 18 seasons now uh during spring training uh uh uh times. Um, you know, I'm a member and board member of the Professional Baseball Chiropractic Society. You know, our practice, I built it into, you know, uh a regenerative sports medicine-centric uh clinic and uh built it up, but as we'll discuss further, uh that all got stripped away and torn down. But that that you know Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

When did you first think the life that you built was cracking?

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Well, you know, I was in denial for the longest time, and I think a lot of people that when their lives are, you know, kind of under stress, and I think that's what, especially in men, you know, men are driven really towards success in general. And I I'm using generalities here, so uh but uh men in general are really driven towards success. And uh um, you know, we don't we don't see the cracks uh that start to develop, and those cracks may show up as health problems, they may show up as uh you know, sleepless nights, they relationship problems with spouses and children. And but it wasn't until uh I had this just crushing pressure of what I had built and I had uh I had built my identity around. You know, once that started to kind of falter, then you know, it took a long time for me to realize it and be willing to uh face it. But I would say that the vast majority of it was probably two or three years ago. But you know, if you looked at me during that time, you would have like thought, wow, this guy's got it together, all the you know, the achievement, the success, the you know, uh the gated uh community he lived in, the car he drove, uh, the business he had, the respect he had and his both from his peers as well as the community. But inside, I was uh I was just I was the house of cards was getting ready to fall down, and it took a while for that to happen. But yeah, I'd say probably like two, three years ago is when I really started to notice the chinks in the armor, so to speak.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

What why do you think that caused it to happen? What was the cause of it? What or the root of it?

SPEAKER_02 5:29

The root of it was that I rooted my identity in my success in accolades. And what I think people don't realize is that when you root yourself and you root your identity in temporary things, trying to build a business and trying to build things, when we do those things in our own strength and our own power, what happens is we what we build, and you know, honestly, when when I uh as I was building things, I was doing it as purpose. It was my purpose, it was my calling. But I was doing it all on my own. Um I was I was striving and trying to chase more success. And when we are operating out of that that mindset of just you know going after success, success, success, we can't maintain at the same level. And the only way we can gain more success is to just work harder. And that eventually that just you can't do that. There's not enough hours in the day, and um, you know, the body can't and the mind can't, you know, continue on in that. And so as we gain that success, what happens in in in my particular case, and I think this is true with a lot of people, is they may go ahead and accomplish something, but as soon as they accomplish it, they're they're like, is that all there is? You know, they don't take time to celebrate it, number one, but number two is they reach that level and then they're looking at the next thing because they're not really fully satisfied with you know certain money in the checking account and the house you live in. You're always looking and striving to the next next thing. And, you know, type A driven personalities, uh uh, you know, that's that's what they experience. And it's it's an unstable foundation, and that's the that's the problem that you know that that's why the anxiety is so high. If you look at uh you know the number of medications that are prescribed, the number one medications are antidepressants. And you know, people are sick, they're tired, they're stressed, divorce is sky high, and it's because we're rooting our identity in things of the world and not really rooted, we haven't really rooted our identity in what's true.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

And what is true in your opinion?

SPEAKER_02 7:39

In my opinion, and I can only speak for what transpired for me was, and and this is here's a little bit of the story is when I was kind of at the peak of this stress level where, you know, all the success on the outside, but miserable on the inside. I couldn't sleep, I you know, was gaining weight, my health was being compromised, my relationship with my wife was being fractured because of lack of communication. I was uh and I, you know, again, kind of hiding, hiding this all not just from everybody else, but also from myself. But I had a young man uh that I met and he just suggested just very innocently, he said, Hey, I go to a men's Bible study every Friday morning, and you're welcome to attend with me. And so um I don't know why I said yes. You know, I'm a Reformed Catholic. You know, I never really, you know, I had a Bible, and I I would read read certain sections of it, but you know, honestly, I would read it and half the time go, what are they talking about? I don't understand what they're saying. And so uh I couldn't really engage in it. And so I went to the Bible study and I walked in, there was like 50 men there. And it was a forum where we could be open, we could be honest, people were vulnerable, and we all cared for each other. And I was like, okay, I found my home now. And I just started diving deeper and deeper into the Word of God and uh studying the Bible, really understanding more and more of what the Bible was, and that was really the tipping point where my uh my I started to see what I was doing, maybe not consciously at the start, but I started to see what I was, you know, I was rooting my identity in the wrong things instead of what God wanted me to do. Um, I felt that that I was my activity was what God wanted me to do. Um, and it may have started that way, but I, you know, I put my business and practice and all these outside things above God, and that's that's that's what can't be sustained. So that was kind of the process of me kind of getting into that.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

You know, there's a saying in the Christian faith, you know, that our identity needs to be in Christ. Do you think that that's where your identity is now?

SPEAKER_02 9:55

I do everything for him. In fact, the the so this this was uh just this last, I would say probably June, July-ish is when really things were, I mean, I I had realized that you know I wasn't gonna be able to sustain this. I needed something different, I needed something to happen. And uh when I was at this Bible study, I continued to go every week and started to you know learn the Bible. I started going to go to a faith-based church, a Bible uh church. And on August 10th of just this last year, I fully submitted my life to Christ. I took that last step of faith and I committed my life to Christ. That was on August 10th. Um, and an interesting thing happened. You would have, I thought, well, yeah, okay, now, now, now things are gonna be better. But that's not what happened. That following week, everything, everything collapsed. So I overheard a conversation that following Tuesday that my uh wife was uh planning on leaving me. I had made the decision that I was gonna have to close my practice, and the result of that was I was gonna have to file bankruptcy. Um my landlord changed the locks on my uh practice. They heard, you know, that I was closing the business, and so I was behind on rent there. I uh realized I couldn't afford my house, and so I was gonna have to sell my house at the worst possible time. And all this, all this, you know, happened, all this collapse happened just within like within a week. I remember uh one morning waking up and kind of laughing, going, I'm going through five things simultaneously that any one of them would crush somebody. I don't know how I'm making it, but I'm making it. And then something interesting happened, and this was when Christ really touched me. So I'm sitting there one morning getting ready for the Bible study. This is just a couple of weeks after submitting my life to Christ, and we're getting ready to study Romans 4, 6 and 7. Uh well, Romans 4, and I came across the passage that I've read multiple times in uh Romans uh six uh six and seven is do not be anxious for nothing, but in everything with prayer and supplication and thanksgiving, let your request be known to God, and the peace that transcends all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. And I still get goosebumps, I'm getting goosebumps right now thinking about that because as soon as I read that, and again, I had read it before, but this time it got sunk down into my soul. I felt the Holy Spirit just wash over me like warm water. And from that moment on, I had all the stress, worry, doubt, fear, anxiety, and anger just dissipate. It just gone. I still had all the fallout of all the things that I needed to deal with. But in that particular moment, I felt the Holy Spirit just give me that peace that transcended all understanding. And that feeling is never left. Now I had, you know, I've had a few pity parties along the way, obviously, but that feeling really is never left. And I remember taking a shower that morning, getting ready to leave. I'm washing my hair, and I'm I'm like, I'm laughing. I'm like, how can I feel like joy in the midst of all this? And the only explanation I can have is that it was Christ and the Holy Spirit just protecting me and and letting me know that um you know this is all his sovereign uh design uh for my life. So uh and ever since then, it's been uh it's been a wild ride. A lot has happened in that that time, but uh it's been been a blessing. Honestly, all of it was worth it.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

You know, the collapse, you know, my wife and I are still getting in the process that we're in the process of a divorce, but we actually are better friends now, and I speak to her often. In fact, I was just texting her this morning about something. Um we communicate constantly. So, but Christ is just amazing. I love him, I love the relationship I have with him, and I do everything for him.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

I think your picture of God King doing that unraveling.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

At first it was like, you know, God, why are you doing this? You know, I was like angry. Like, why are you allowing this to happen? And you know, I didn't, you know, now I understand looking back, but at the time I I was I was just angry. Like, why, God, why are you doing this? If you loved me, you know, that's like an often question. If you loved me, why would you allow this to happen? And I think of Job, the book of Job in the Bible, where he was a God-loving man and uh, you know, you know, faithful beyond faithful. And uh, you know, God allowed allowed Satan to uh you know, you know, break him. And uh it wasn't until he finally, you know, prayed and he prayed in anger, like, why are you doing this? Uh, you know, stop this. And God was like, you know, I don't remember you uh being around when I created the universe, so be humble. And so that's uh um that's the that was the shift is is first it was anger and why are you doing this, to okay, what are you doing in this? And and I think if people when they're going through difficult times and it could be the loss of somebody, you know, for example, in 200 uh 19, my first wife, of 30 years, passed away from pancreatic cancer. And of course, we prayed to uh, you know, that she would get well, you know, as a physician and understanding, you know, different diseases. I knew that pancreatic cancer was was really rough. It was going to be a rough road and very small percent of success. And so, you know, we we prayed, but those prayers weren't answered. She didn't get well. And so that's that was another like, why, you know, why? I you know, I just don't understand why. But I think if somebody could take in the midst of their struggles and their uh their worries and doubts, if they could shift from why are you doing this to what can I learn from this? What are you doing and try to gain understanding from that, that one little shift can be transformative in their faith walk and their their walk with God. And I, you know, again, from my own personal experience and other people that I speak to often, that is the pivotal, pivotal question to ask yourself and to make that shift as to, you know, instead of why is it happening, of what can I learn from what's happening.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

You know, you mentioned the the story of Gob in the Bible and where you know God allows, you know, the devil to tempt to tempt Gob and to you know wipe out everything that Gob had and then you know God comes back and restores everything that that Gob has had.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

Ten times over.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Ten times over, correct. Has that happened? I mean, maybe not the same way, but has you know God restored some of what you know was lost when everything collapsed?

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Yeah, actually the uh uh and that's just this is just fresh. So at one point, probably in uh October, I think it was, I had my my uh car repossessed. Didn't know it was gonna happen. Uh shouldn't have been surprised because I was behind on the payments on the thing, but which was and I'll I'll let me circle back to uh what you just asked me, but I think this is an important uh question uh or an important pivot for myself and I think for a lot of people is so I had already you know filed bankruptcy, I'd already you know kind of gone through a bunch of processes. I got my house listed and you know, I'm getting ready to sell the house. My wife's packing up, ready to move, you know, all this stuff going on. And I'm standing, I got home from work and I'm standing speaking to my wife in the kitchen, and we're still again, we're still very amicable. And so I'm uh speaking to her, and all of a sudden I hear a car alarm going off. And I'm like, well, that's weird. What's going on? I walk outside, and here's my uh car is a jeep. I'm a jeep guy. I've had like three Jeeps in my lifetime. I love Jeeps. Well, they had they had repoed it and it was halfway down the road. And at that moment, and I didn't realize this until not too long ago, but at that moment, that was one of my pity party days where I was just like, I was on my hands and knees, just you know, bawling. And uh what it was was it wasn't the fact that it uh my car got repossessed, it was the last bit of pride I was still hanging on to and still trying to hide. Because when that got car got towed, the horns going off. So my neighbors are out there, they saw it, my wife saw it, and my last bit of pride was completely stripped at that point. And again, I'm glad it happened because it was a restoration process, a start of a restoration process, because then I totally submitted to what was going on, and I I couldn't hide it anymore. There was no hiding this uh process. So um, so now fast forward to just recently, the I I ended up buying a car for like $4,000. Uh, you know, I scraped together $4,000 to buy a car so I could have some transportation. Obviously, older car, 2009, has some mechanical problems. Well, the mechanical problems have gotten you know way out of hand. I found out a couple weeks ago that it needs $5,000 worth of work. And so I'm not gonna sink five grand into a 2009 car. Anyway, so I uh um you know, I wanted to get a Jeep again. I'm like, you know, I think I want to get a Jeep again. And so uh, you know, they're not the most uh inexpensive vehicles, but I started searching, started looking, and um I finally was like, I I put it into God's hands. I said, okay, Lord, you know, if if it is meant to be to uh you know, start the restoration process that I get a Jeep again, it's in your hands, one way or the other. I don't, you know, whatever. Whatever you want me to do, I'll do, and whatever opportunity you have, uh show it to me. That afternoon, a couple hours later, I'm look scrolling through Facebook Marketplace, and I see uh, of course, you know, searching for Jeeps, you're in the algorithm. So everyone and his brother has a Jeep that's for sale, it shows up. And so uh I'm looking, looking through there and I see this, see this Jeep, and it had a red banner across it, no dealer fees. Well, I had purchased a vehicle from this particular dealer before, and uh, but I didn't connect it because it was a different type of vehicle. And I went in there, I'm like, oh my gosh, that's the same dealer. And they're Christians, they're honest. In fact, uh, so I went up yesterday and I honestly feel that God's just, you know, he's he's given me that restoration hope. I've been able to secure another job with uh, you know, a nice salary and bonuses. I love the people I'm working with, and I'm able to use my skills as a uh chiropractor and uh sports medicine and regenerative medicine specialist. So, yeah, to answer your question is that restoration process is uh is ongoing and is going. But again, I I give thanks every day, morning, night, constantly to he who is providing all this and uh give thanks to God and and for all the glory and honor it goes to him. And uh I try to remain humble.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Yeah. How can you put no heat the way you now view spiritual endurance?

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Yeah, spiritual endurance is uh, and uh this actually kind of leads it leads into my next book. So I don't want to get too far ahead of myself. But spiritual endurance is the ability to just like in running in a marathon, uh, I you know I've participated in marathons, I've run a couple marathons. Um I'll never never do that again because I hated it. But there's a point in where you just want to quit. You want to stop because you know, the last marathon I ran in, I was cramped up by mile 20. I had another you know 6.2 to go. I had old ladies that were, you know, in their 70s passing me going, are you right, honey? And I'm like, just keep on walking, lady. But it is, you you just you just want to quit. And the same thing happens with spiritual endurance. And my my hope and prayer is that people that are going through hard times is they can gain uh some inspiration and insight and uh you know what scripture tells us about trials and tribulations and to focus on uh the cross and not focus on our circumstances. It's so easy when we're living in a broken and fallen and sinful world to look at our circumstances and look at the waves that that are uh the storms that are all around us and not focus our our attention on the cross, where you know Jesus paid the ultimate price and purchased us. And if we if we can uh keep our eye on the cross, it reminds us Me, the casting crown song. I got that got the lyrics rolling around in my head. You know, if you're focused on the storm, you'll wonder if I love you still. If you're focused on the cross, you know I always have and I always will. And that is uh that is a fact. So spiritual endurance is to stay in stay in the process. Again, keep asking yourself, you know, what what am I learning in this? Okay, when when something bad happens, why did that happen? And you know, oftentimes when we give our lives to Christ, he's gonna take and start stripping away everything that uh we rooted our identity in that was not serving him. And uh once we you know, once you can understand that, I think it's a uh you know powerful uh thing to do. And the interesting thing is, and again, the next book is uh called Inside Out, and it's how most people try to make an external, they try to do stuff on the outside to make things better in their life. And uh again, that can't be sustained, but if they take and take a step of faith and make an internal transformation, what manifests on the outside is automatic. You don't have to strive for it, it just automatically comes out of you.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

No, you mentioned to pivot a little bit, you mentioned that in the beginning that you worked with um the Pittsburgh Pirates, that you're the chiropractor for the Pittsburgh Pirates. Who are some for my friends and audience who are sports people, who are some of the athletes that you've worked with?

SPEAKER_02 24:12

Okay, so well I first started with I was with the Baltimore Orioles for 13 years, 13 seasons, and then uh, you know, more recently with the with the Pirates. But I've uh I've treated Jim Tomey, you know, he's uh you know, if you're a baseball fan, everybody knows who Jim Tomey is. Brian Roberts, who is uh, you know, two-time All-Star uh second baseman for the Orioles. You know, I'm trying to think. I see so many of these guys that I can't remember a lot oftentimes. You know, JJ Hardy was uh on Chris Davis with the Orioles. And uh yeah, so you know, quite a few uh big name guys. So uh uh you know it's been a blessing to be able to do that. And I enjoyed every every spring training, but there's a chiropractor actually up in Punxita that is the main chiropractor for the pirates during the regular season. I just take care of them during spring training. I see a lot of I see a lot of uh non-roster guys too when uh during spring training.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

What does it actually look like on a daily basis to let go of control and then play God's plan, especially when the path ahead isn't clear?

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Well, that's a that's a great question. And for me, it's been uh I'm a I'm a structure guy. I I need structure and I'm a habit guy. And so um I start and end my day with this particular prayer, and uh I actually have that in a study guide as uh kind of a warrior's prayer. But the prayer is is good and gracious, Heavenly Father, I acknowledge my life is not my own. It belongs to you. You have called me for a purpose far greater than myself, and I willingly submit to your plan. Prepare me, Lord, build within me the heart of a servant and the strength of a leader. Give me clarity where there is uncertainty, peace when there is pressure, and conviction when there is compromise. Teach me to be still and to hear your voice, to trust you fully, and to move only when you lead. May my life be a vessel for your glory, and may everything I do point back to you. In Jesus Christ, Amen. And so that's a morning and night prayer, sometimes during the day too, if I'm under stress. But you know, I do that before I rise out of bed, and then uh, you know, I do my uh do some Bible study for about you know about 30 minutes, maybe, uh 40 minutes, depending. And then uh for me, I'm like totally engrossed in it. So I'm the only thing I watch on TV is YouTube videos of Pastor Joe B. Martin or uh JD Greer or Josh Howerton. And uh you know, I'm listening to scripture all day long. So uh in a very short period of time, I've gotten very, very deep in the Word, the Word of God. Anyone that's studying the Bible, one thing that really helped me was, you know, you're reading uh uh scripture. So you're reading in Job. You're like, what are they talking about here? You know, what what what what does all this mean? And uh take that section, go to Chat GPT or some AI program, pump it in there and say, what does this mean? Explain it to me in layman's terms, and you'd be surprised what uh rabbit hole you can go down to to really start to understand the history, the context, the uh you know, society at the time and what was happening to really kind of gain an understanding of of what they're saying in the Bible. But that's pretty much, you know, I uh you know, uh, you know, go to work and come home and you know, I get to the gym four days a week and get some exercise, get some sun, and and you know, kind of have my routines.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Yeah, I come and cook out and once in a while on uh Instagram or even TikTok now. He you know, he seems to be a good college thinker there.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Yeah. Yeah, I like I also like uh Pastor Joe Barton of uh Church 1122 out of Jacksonville. He's like your man's man pastor, if if anyone's familiar with him. He's you know, big beard, bald, jacked, tattoos all over the place. He calls it the way he sees it. He doesn't uh mince words or anything. He's very uh I don't want to say controversial. He's very uh kind of in your face, you know. And uh I but I really really enjoy his his uh his sermons.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

What does spiritual endurance really mean and how is it different from just pushing through hard times?

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Yeah, spiritual endurance, this is you know, I've run a couple marathons, and uh there's points in uh a marathon where we just, my gosh, you just want to quit. You want to stop. It's you know too painful. And you know, if but if you're committed and you know that there is a finish line, uh despite the fact how far that finish line might be, when you know that there's a finish line, it's easier to go ahead and continue on and just you know grind through through the thing. Spiritual endurance can be a little bit different because oftentimes we don't we don't see the finish line, we don't know what the finish line even is. And so um uh it takes uh uh you know a lot of commitment, dedication, and to uh you know, not look at our circumstances, but look at what God is doing in those circumstances for us. And so spiritual endurance, my hope and prayer is that uh people can just submit and understand that you know, as as uh uh you know, children of God and image bearers of God, he's not gonna allow the uh you know everything to you know continue, you know, completely collapse and not have restoration in the end. And so it's important to just you know stay stay in it, just keep taking one step at a time. In fact, when in uh chapter eight of my book, uh Spiritual Endurance, I talk about following a path that we can't see. And you know, we walk by faith, not by sight. And so if we can learn that every day and not not worry about seeing the whole path, uh, we almost never see the whole path. He doesn't reveal the whole path to us, he just reveals the next step that we we need to take. And if we can continue to take each step and then the next step and then the next step and understand that uh, you know, he he's guiding us through uh our trials and tribulations and our our process and have faith to just keep keep moving forward and not give up.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

How can someone refrain the current collapse of a refining?

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Yeah, I mean, you know, somebody going through uh extremely uh difficult situations with maybe uh the death of a loved one, a collapse of a business, a divorce, you know, bankruptcy. I can speak from experience on all this. And that is is that uh, you know, be open and don't. I wrote an article um that I think it's on my website called Don't Waste the Fire. And there's there's events that that everybody, every human being goes through where everything that they kind of rooted themselves in gets shaken away. It gets uh there's there's a stress point. And we need to uh position ourselves and frame ourselves into learning what God is doing in those those times in us, be open and humble and have humility in the process to really learn and be open to finding out what God's trying to do and uh acting on what God is telling us to do in those situations. So that's that's the main takeaway.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

If people wanted to get you a book, where can they do that?

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Uh they can go on uh Amazon, uh just search Spiritual Endurance book and it'll come right up. It's offered in paperback as well as uh Kindle Direct. And uh I'm not sure when this is going to be released to the podcast, but by that time we should also have the uh Spiritual Endurance six-week study guide complete, uh which kind of takes people through uh a study guide with scripture uh daily uh tasks for a week for each week uh that coincides with the book itself. But yeah, and then they can also go to spiritualendurance.com and they can find links to the book itself as well as uh an ability to you know book me for speaking engagements and uh you know, both with organizations as well as um you know church groups and faith-based uh businesses and so forth.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

And I would always like to ask my guest to give a word of encouragement to my audience.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yeah, you know what? My my words of encouragement are the you're not defined by the trials, tribulations, and the adversity that you're going through. You will be defined on how you respond to those adversities and tribulations, and defined in what Christ does for you. And so don't root yourself in the temporary things of this life. Be renewed in your mind every day on uh the truth of what God wants for you and stand firm and in the scriptures, keep moving forward, and um you know, better days are ahead. We just need to, you know, not put our focus on the storm, but put our focus on the cross.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Amen. Well, Dr. Ken Kaufman, thank you so much for coming on the show today. We greatly appreciate having you.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

All right, thanks, Dorsey. Thank you very much for having me on.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Well, guys and girls, thank you so much for coming on for listening. Please go and check out Ken's book and his website. We'll have that information in the show notes. And please go and check and review this podcast and share it with your friends and check out previous episodes as well at www.sorchow.com and until next time. God bless. Bye bye.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

God bless.