Walking Through The Wilderness Of Faith With Dustin Kleinschmidt

Dustin’s Icebreaker Love Story

Hello everyone, thank you again for joining me on another episode of the Dorsey Ross Show. Today our um podcast is sponsored by the Yoderi Audio Group, which inspires and uplifts through discussions, testimonies, and teachings, equipping listeners for meaningful conversations. Today on the Dorsey Ross Show, I'm honored to welcome Dustin Clansmitt. Dustin is a pastor, author, teacher, and coach who has spent over 25 years walking alongside people in their faith and journey. He's passionate about helping people live well in the midst of life's complications, especially in what he calls the wilderness seasons. Through his book, The Wilderness Way, his teaching and his coaching as ministry leaders, Dustin invites us to see the struggle. Can actually be a place of growth, amazing, leaving, flourishing. I'm excited for the conversation because we're going to talk about faith in real life, not the polished version, but the honest and between spaces with God is shaping us the most dusting. Welcome to the show.

Dorsey, thanks for having me. That was the best intro so far of anyone who's done it. You win, you get the prize. Well done. Um, yeah, glad to be here. Glad to get to have the chance to chat.

Well, I always like to open up with an icebreaker question. And today's icebreaker question is what is your favorite story to tell?

Ministry Burnout And Resignation

Goodness. Uh how what what's the rating of this podcast? Are we G or is this Disney or is this HBO? That will very much impact the story that I tell. Oh my gosh. There's so many. Well, I mean, luckily I'm not pa I'm not vocationally a pastor right now. So I do have a little more flexibility. I'm not embarrassing a direct group of people other than my family at this point. Jeez, a great story. You know, the the one I actually got to tell this recently is the story of my wife and I connecting. So we kind of knew of each other in high school, in this the high school youth group we were part of, but she stayed away from me because I was part of the group of guys that were we weren't bad kids, but we were definitely knuckleheads. Like the way I like to describe it is there weren't a lot of felonies, but there were quite a few misdemeanors, and we were just goofballs. But in college, her and I met, and through our college ministry, we started hanging out together, and I was I was finding myself smitten and interested in her. And um, you know, we were hanging out a bunch, and that and and I kind of thought she was reciprocating it, but I didn't know for sure. And so what happened was she got sick, and this is the funny part. So to this day, it's been 29, 30 years since she got sick. She says she wasn't sick, she says she had a head cold. I'm pretty sure she had the flu, but there's a there's an argument about this. But anyways, so what I did is I sent her a like a teddy bear and a rose to her house where she was living with her mom and just said, Hey, I hope you feel better. And then the next day I get a call from her saying, Hey, can we talk? And I'm like, What what happened? And and we sit down and she goes, Hey, so what what's the deal with us? And I was like, Whoa, I I don't know what you're talking about. And she's like, I'm not ready for a serious relationship. And I'm like, Whoa, slow down, buckaroo. Like, I have none, I don't want to have a serious relationship. And she's like, Well, what about this teddy bear and rose? I'm like, hey, I was just being nice. You were sick. I was just and I was backpedaling my way right out the door. Now I did win her over, and within a couple months we were dating, and she admitted, she finally admitted she did like me. She just fought it as long as she could. So I guess that was there's a there's a kind of a funny, cute story. That was more G r dude, that was G-rated. I stayed, I stayed on the G-rated side.

You spent 25 years in ministry before B before burnout forced you out. What happened? What did I will teach you that year in ministry couldn't?

Entering The Wilderness After Stepping Down

The Wilderness Way Framework

Oh, that's a great question. So the the years of ministry, whenever you spend any vocation that serves people, which is a lot of vocations, you can think of a doctor, a nurse, a counselor, pastor in ministry is like that too. There is a cumulative effect of wear and tear in many ways that I would say oftentimes we don't even realize that we're in the midst of. Because we love it. We love people, we love being investing in people, we love serving them and we want to help them. And so there's this sense that you're kind of just giving away and giving away and giving away. And you try to be attentive to that and make sure that you're being poured into. But for me, I went 25 years in ministry in various churches, healthy, unhealthy, balanced, imbalanced. And the last season, which was early 2020, like 2021 through end of 2023, um, I was a lead pastor of a church along with a pastoral team. Uh, but it was a church in crisis. They had come out of a really hard season where their senior pastor before me had resigned due to a moral failure. Um, there was a lot of distrust. It was right on the backside of COVID. Yeah, it was just a really messy situation. And so, you know, I came in and I had been on staff at that church previously. So I kind of knew what was going on, and and I knew a lot of the people. So I thought that would help me in the journey of trying to help out. And ultimately what happened was it was just crisis after crisis after crisis, and it was so hard to win people over. It's funny how like you try and move slower so that people don't feel shocked by change, and then the people that want change are mad at you because you're not moving fast enough. And then when you move fast on something, people get mad at you for not slowing down. And so it's this it's in many ways, you know, there's just a there's a cost of leadership, and it it can be relentless. And it built to the point where I was overwhelmed and frustrated. And I talk about it in my book in the first chapter about I was at an elder meeting, and that elder meeting went so poorly due to a couple of staff people sitting there basically telling the leadership that they just didn't buy our leadership anymore and didn't want to follow us. And I got in my car and I called my wife and I just said, I don't see a way forward. I think I'm done with this. Um, and so within a month or so, I had given my resignation. And that really was the beginning of the wilderness. Honestly, as much as everything I just told you feels like wilderness and there is wilderness to it, which will help us understand the book a little bit better. It wasn't until I resigned, like, people have asked, like, hey, did you feel relief after resigning? And I said, yes, for about 72 hours. And then um, all of a sudden it was this sense of like, who am I and why am I here? And like I feel like a big fat failure. And I I went back because I was supposed to be able to make a difference and help. And now I'm just another, you know, in the legacy of people who have been run over in this situation. And and so that's really where the wilderness started to set in. And it it got really, really dark. It got really, really hard over the course of the next handful of years. You know, I'd still say, I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm out of it. I'd say it's changed. What I've learned, and this really is the core of the book, is that for those of us of faith, those of us who uh believe in Jesus and believe in the Bible, that what you see as a theme in scripture, but specifically in Exodus, is that God rescues Israel from slavery, they're they're slavery, uh, their slaves to Egypt, and he rescues them from that, and he says, I'm gonna give you a promised land, and he promises them this location that will be exactly what they need it to be. But then they spend 40 years in the wilderness wandering. Um, and as I paralleled that to my journey, it was when I place my faith in Jesus, I was rescued from slavery to sin and death. And one day there will be a promised land, and Revelation talks about it, right? Where there's no more sorrow and no more pain and all the injustice and all the struggle and everything. It says that God will wipe away every tear from every eye. But if if that's the promised land and I've been rescued from slavery, well, then what's the life that I live today? Well, it's a wilderness. And and wilderness isn't all bad. It's not like, uh, it's not the oh, life's gonna stink and then you're gonna die. But it is the reality that life is simultaneously beautiful and broken. And I think that what I learned is that I had had some kind of an expectation that, and I it wasn't conscious. Like I went to Bible college. I know scripture, I've read Greek, I know Hebrew. Like, it isn't that I didn't know these things theologically, but there was something deep inside of me that had a transaction with God built out or an expectation that said, if I do what you asked me to, then the things that you asked me to do will work out. And that doesn't always work that way. Um, and like I said, like you don't have to look far in your Bible to find that reality. But for me, it was like, well, God, we felt that you were calling us to go back to this church and help lead it. And we prayed about it and it was super clear. And so I did it. And then three years later, I resigned, and that's not fair, basically, is you know, and so I I threw a temper tantrum with God. And he said, Hey, maybe you should think about what your expectations of this life are and what your expectations of me are. And the beautiful thing is, is that in the midst of understanding that this life is a wilderness, I also began to really realize how God is with us in the wilderness. He doesn't always remove us from it. Um sometimes he does, but he doesn't always. But he's there with us, present and guiding and caring and protecting and you know, challenging all those things.

What what does a wilderness look like? I'm I'm assuming that a wilderness will will look like will look different for each person in their journey. What what what have you seen in conversation with people and whatnot? How have you seen people live in their wilderness?

What Wilderness Looks Like For Different People

What does that look like for people? It is very different. And uh I think it's so important to look at every to at least be an observer of everyone else's life or the people that you know or the the the wider ecosystem because it's really easy to fall into the woe is me, like my my thing stinks and I've had a hard time. And yet, man, as much as my, you know, I've had my challenges and I've had hard things, some things that I did to myself, right? Like we shoot ourselves in our foot and we go, ow, our foot hurts now. And then there's the reality that other people shoot us in the foot. And life, there's when you have a world of brokenness full of broken people, they're gonna collide and not even intentionally. It's not like there's the bad guys and the good guys, although that's true, but good good people make dumb decisions, and then their dumb decision rubs off on you, and then then you make a dumb decision because you're mad at them for making a decision. And then it and so I I think that accepting that is such a huge part of it. And and I think that when I've looked at other people's journey, and I think one of the things I really want to encourage people with is it's okay wherever you are, whatever of whatever the wilderness is, and it could be emotional or mental health issues, it could be spiritual, a sense of like, man, I just don't feel like God's near or with me. It can be my kids are out of control and I don't know if I can hold it together much longer as a parent. It could be physical pain, like all of those things can happen. And I think the first thing that I had to reconcile, and I really encourage with others, is that doesn't mean necessarily that you're doing something wrong. Like there isn't a transaction to say, and you see this in the book of Job, where it's like, you know, Job was the best of the best. And, you know, it's God that actually points that out to the enemy and says, hey, like check out my homeboy over here. He's awesome. And and what does Satan say? He goes, Yeah, because you give him everything, like take some stuff away and see see what he does. And so obviously that story plays itself out, but then Job's friends, you know, they start out great. Job's friends start amazing. They sit with him in his loss and in his pain, and they're just there with him. And then they start trying to figure it out, which is always the worst thing we can do, is trying to figure out the why. Like, well, why, Job? What what did you do? What did you do to make God mad? And that's becomes a big part of the book, is this argument between Job and his buddies about like, there's no way that a righteous person could have such bad things happen to them. Um, and so that's I think that, you know, what I've observed in people is that tension is that when things go sideways for us, we immediately look at a cause and effect, like we look for cause and effect. So I got uh cancer, let's say, hypothetically, I didn't, I don't have it, but I'm saying, like, I'm diagnosed with cancer. Well, you know, one, I have to deal with the cancer, but then there's a part of me that's like, okay, was it because I ate too much sugar? Like, we want to look for what causes those things. And there's wisdom in some of that, but I also think there's something to be said for just being willing to say, man, this is just hard. And I'm just gonna kind of, I just need to let that out. Not fatalistically, not woe is me, but to say, um, I'm not gonna pretend that everything's just gonna be okay. I'm gonna acknowledge what it is, and then I'm gonna ask God to meet me in the middle of it, and I'm gonna surround myself with people who will support me and love me, and then I'll take a next step.

Yeah, most Christians are taught the wilderness that the wilderness is something to escape. Why do you say this life between rescue and restoration is the wilderness? And why does that reframe matter?

Stop Escaping: Seeing God In Messy Seasons

Joy And Worship Inside The Wilderness

Yeah, uh, that's a great question. It's huge. If we spend, okay, and so this is my experience. I spend a lot, I spent a lot of energy trying to escape the wilderness or fix it. Um, in fact, on my desk at all times, I have a Rubik's Cube. I don't know if you've seen these. This is before computers and phones, right? We actually would sit around and try and solve a Rubik's Cube. And I I keep it on my desk. And the reason I keep it on my desk is as a visual reminder to me every day that I am not a problem to solve, that other people are not problems to solve, that all of my circumstances aren't necessarily problems to solve, and that it's okay that things can be a little confusing. The colors are not matched on purpose. You know, my daughter is funny, like she'll come and solve it. And then as soon as she does, I mess it up again. Because life is messy and it's a reminder to me that life is messy. And so I think what happens is that when we're in hard seasons, the compulsion is okay, how do I fix this? How do I get out of this? What how do I stop this? And so all of the energy that we have goes into either making it at least feel better, we numb it, you know, we run away from it, we climb out of it, you know, we blame others for it. We do all these things. We burn so many calories trying to figure out what to do with the wilderness. But what we don't often do is allow ourselves to sit in it and see God in the midst of it. And I think that's the biggest reframe is that, again, not that you don't try and resolve the issues you're having, but to start with, okay, God, what's going on and what are you trying to do here? And, you know, Elijah, if you know the story of Elijah in the Old Testament, he's one of the prophets, and he's, you know, basically in a brawl, a spiritual brawl with other prophets, and basically says, My dad's bigger than your dad, so go ahead. You do all your things, you call out to your gods and see if this um offering gets consumed, and they do. And these guys are these prophets of Baal are cutting themselves and dancing around, and um, Elijah's mocking them and making fun of them. He's just like, and he basically says the the Hebrew, the way that it says in the Hebrew is he says, Hey, maybe your maybe your gods are reveal are relieving themselves, like maybe you're in the bathroom. That's why they're not answering you. So you've got this guy who's got all this bravado and all this trust in God, and he's like, Yeah, and then he calls down fire from the Lord and it consumes the offering, and then he takes care of all the prophets of Baal. And then literally, in a couple sentences, he's threatened by Queen Jezebel and he runs off into the wilderness. Elijah does, runs off into the wilderness and whines and complains to God and basically says, take my life. And God's like, Why don't you have something to eat and take a nap? And and then we'll go from there. And so that's time, like, God didn't just come back at Elijah and go, No, you're wrong, you know better. He said, Okay, why don't you rest? Let's just let's just be here for a minute. And I want you to think about where you're at and who I am. And then if you know the famous story, God shows up in a whisper, he doesn't come show up in the storms, right? So then it unpacks this reorientation and reframing, like your your question is about what is the wilderness and where is God in the midst of it, and how does God interact with me? And I think that's really significant because if we can put the bulk of our energy into seeing what God is doing and how we can be faithful in the wilderness, we won't spend so much time trying to get out of it.

How do we still celebrate life and celebrate God and you know, interact with him and worship him and still have still have the joy of the Lord while we're in that wilderness?

Why Dustin Wrote The Wilderness Way

Yeah, that's a great question. Uh so like my the core thesis of the book is that all of this life is the wilderness. And so I don't think that we're ever not in the wilderness in terms of this, not in the terms of like bad, it's all bad, but in terms of at any moment, things can go sideways. Like we're not promised that things are gonna go hunky dory, no pun intended. Dorsey, hunky dorsey? No, I'm just kidding. You know, we're not promised that. And so I think that there's a both a realism about the reality of life that I could be having the best year of my life in my career and in my marriage, and one trip to the doctor's office, and all that's out the window. Hey, you've got cancer. You know what I mean? Like there is, and so we want to think that we have control, but we have zero control. And so I think that the way that we ironically, the way that we find joy and peace isn't by trying to control the wilderness as much as it's by trusting that God is in the wilderness with us. And that it's gonna be a mix. Like in in the last couple of weeks, a story I've used is that, you know, I get these amazing, fun, mountaintop moments in my life. Like I helped coach my daughter's volleyball team, and she's 14, and we have a blast. Like it's so much fun to hang out with all these goofy girls and try and play volleyball. And so I can go from that moment of of great joy and a lot of fun and like, wow, this is really cool, and then go have coffee with a friend who's going through a divorce and sit with them in the middle of it and see them struggle and pray with them and love them. And so life is this weird mix of both beauty and brutality, and it's never not gonna be that. And so I think that that is so once we once we've settled that, then we look for God in the midst of it, and then that's where joy comes in. Because then we can start to see these little things that God does that maybe we didn't expect, the little connections or the the the the little bit of relief or whatever it would be that he does in the in those spaces. And yes, ultimately, one day he will wipe every tear from every eye, and and that's worth holding on to. But I think we sometimes what we do is we bypass the minute by minute, moment by moment joys in the midst of the hard things because we just go, well, one day it's gonna get fixed. And and yes, it will. But then even here and now, like uh on my hardest days, there's really cool things that are going on if I'm looking for them.

Yeah. Tell us a little bit more about your book and what made you write it and where people can find it.

Expectations, Trials, And Honest Leadership

Absolutely. Yeah. So my book was it really came out of this whole journey for me of God kind of, you know, walking through a season of severe depression and uh loss of sense of value and worth and identity and everything I had poured myself into for 25 years seemed to evaporate. And, you know, I felt like I had a big tattoo on my forehead that said big fat failure. And and I was walking around and like I was the pariah. Like, no, everyone's like, no, just like stay away from him. Like that guy's that guy's problem. And so I there was a journey I went on in that, and it was actually listening to, I don't remember if I was listening to a podcast or what, but that framework I mentioned of rescued from slavery, one day there's a promised land, this life is a wilderness. Um, that kind of illuminated God used that, he illuminated that in my heart and my mind, and it just was an instant, and it was like he was whispering to me, hey, maybe the problem isn't everything you're disappointed with, maybe the problem is the expectations you've had. Because every disappointment we have is built on an unmet expectation. And so what it caused me to do is start really wrestling with my expectations. And in that, I started journaling. I didn't plan to write a book, I just started journaling. A lot of what I was thinking, I wasn't, you know, if you know anything about pastors, they like to talk. And so I wasn't teaching on Sundays at the time. And so I was looking for an outlet. And so writing became that outlet. And slowly but surely a book took shape and I made my wife read it to tell me if it was any good. And of course, she thought it was good, but she kind of has to think it's good. And then over time, it just started to become something where I realized oh, not only is this really helping me, but I think there's something here that others could benefit from. And so, yeah, it's called The Wilderness Way. Um, it's available on Amazon. Um, that's probably the easiest place to find it. I also wrote a workbook called the Wilderness Way Workbook that goes kind of parallel to it and takes some of the core scriptures from it. And it's the it's my story along with the biblical story of what why I believe that this life is the wilderness and that's a good thing, not a bad thing.

You mentioned well first of all, you mentioned about pastors and I before I, you know, before COVID and everything, I was traveling for 15 years, you know, 16 years, and I also have my own minister's license with the denomination Symbolies of God. So I I know what you I know what you're saying when you say pac you know, pastors, let's talk. So you mentioned about expectations, you know, I think a lot of Christians, you know, they think that, you know, the Christian life or the Christian granny is gonna be good and happy and joyful and everything. And then when they get into it, you know, they realize afterwards, hey, this isn't always gonna be, you know, you know, rainbows and and sunshine, you know. Yeah. Because the Bible even says, hey, you will be put put into trials and tribulation.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

You've been um open about your struggles with anxiety, depression, and pornography while in ministry. How do you navigate that in a culture that expects leaders to have it all together?

Pornography, Confession, And Healing

Anxiety, Depression, And Letting Pressure Out

Coaching Leaders: Health In Four Dimensions

That's great. Uh great question. Uh good in some spaces and bad in other spaces. So my and I I talk about my struggle with pornography in the book a little bit. That was something that started as an early child before I became a Christian. You know, growing up with my stepdad, pornography was bathroom reading material. And so there was a part of me that just never knew that that was wrong until I became a Christian. And then it was like, oh, I gotta reconcile that. But there also was a piece of me that very much was like, if, and I think a lot of people struggle with this, there's a narrative inside that's that thinks if people really knew the real me, they would reject me. And even so, this is even when like the pornography thing predominantly was before I was in pastoral ministry. There was a little bit of carryover, but I had opportunities to share that struggle and have people walk alongside me, but I was so terrified of being rejected that I would just, I wouldn't. And it wasn't because the people were unsafe, it was because I was both simultaneously terrified and prideful, right? So it's always a mix of both. Um, I there's a pride in me that's like, I don't want to admit that I'm struggling with something. And then there's the part of like, and if they really knew, they would reject me. So that became kind of a an issue for a long time. And and um, spoiler alert, I'll give away a part of a chapter of the book. But basically, I would we were my wife and I were married, and I got caught um looking at it, and um it was the one of the worst days of my life. Having not because I got caught, although I was that obviously was not good for me, but because of the impact on my wife and watching it break her heart was, and and I talk about the story in the book. I remember us laying next to each other in bed that night, back to back, silently, and I felt the bed shaking because she was crying. And I was like, at that moment, like I don't ever want to feel this again. Like, I I don't want to do this to her. And so, you know, we we I, you know, once the rug gets pulled out from underneath you, you have two choices. You can try and get that rug back, or you can just come clean and start really working towards walking in freedom and honesty. And so we went to counseling. I started being honest, and to this day, she's my greatest advocate, where like if I'm struggling or thinking about being if I'm having like lustful ideas, even or even inclinations, she's the one of the first ones I'll text or call and say, Hey, just pray for me. I'm struggling. And it's and it's so she's now become the advocate versus feeling like the enemy in this all, which is really, really cool. So, you know, that was one thing. And then that's an ongoing, you're kind of always navigating that. But we need people in our lives whom we trust won't reject us and whom will be both honest with us, like, you know, it's truth and love, right? Loving and honest at the same time. So that's how I navigated that piece of it. And then the anxiety and depression, you know, I think that for a lot of years in ministry, I suppressed the anxiety and the depression in some ways and was like, I have to put my best foot forward. I'm I'm the guy in charge. So, you know, never let him see a sweat. And um, your body has a cumulative impact from that. And I think part of when I resigned in 2023 was that damn bursting inside of me and my body finally saying, we are no longer going to let you pretend things that aren't your reality. Um, and so yeah, so that, you know, I would not suggest doing it that way. I would suggest, you know, let pressure off sooner and earlier, meet with people, connect with people, find people you trust ideally inside your church community, but if not outside your church community, it's part of why I started doing the coaching, is because sometimes you need a voice that understands, but isn't necessarily in your ecosystem, at least at first. So having a coach and being a coach helps with that kind of stuff.

And is that what you do now as a full-time um profession?

Hope For Those Who Feel They’re Failing

Yeah, I do, I probably do 40 things part-time. I think. So the coaching is some is one of those things where you know, I've I I've always loved investing in other leaders. I was really, really well invested in as a young leader. I wouldn't be sitting here at all if I hadn't had the leadership investment that I had when I was in high school and college and just learning how to follow Jesus. And so I have a deep, deep passion for investing in others. Um, and I love investing in leaders, young and old, and just being able to be an honest voice, you know, it's not someone that just kind of puts up with their BS, but is, you know, willing to call them out, but at the same time is like, hey, I know how much that hurts. I've walked that road, right? And so being able to be that for leaders, you know, we we focus on four issues in the coaching, which is spiritual health, emotional health, relational health, and organizational health. So it's not just strategy, it's not just what you're feeling and going through, it's kind of a mix of all of it because we're like as humans, we're holistic. Like a tough season at work impacts my family. And so we I want to make sure that we're trying to like navigate all those things together.

If you could say one thing to the Christian who feels like they're fully failing at faith, what would you want them to hear?

Final Encouragement And Resources

You're not failing at faith, and that's faith comes through fire and testing. And God is not afraid of your questions, he is not afraid of your doubts. Um, he's not even afraid of your anger at him about your circumstances. I like to say that God wears big boy pants and he is not. I mean, we can bring all the things to him. I'll give you a little inside. Here's a little inside baseball. This is exclusively for you, Dorsey. No one else knows this yet. I'm actually in the final writing stages of doing a children's book based on my book. Okay. And it's gonna be called Why Is This the Worst Day Ever? And it's this, it's the whole idea that whole idea that like when we just feel like this is the worst day ever, what is going on? The answer isn't to pretend it's okay, and the answer isn't to just wallow in it. There's something in between there that that was where God meets us. And so that's what I would say to those weary Christians or weary people, and not even just Christians, but people are just fed up with life. Life is hard. And that's okay to admit, like life, it's okay to be fed up with life a little bit. Um, and that doesn't mean that that you're a failure. It doesn't mean that you're doing it wrong necessarily. We all have areas to grow in. My encouragement is first and foremost, know that that you're not the problem exclusively. And then two, God is not afraid of all of the mess. The mess that you've done, the mess that's done to you. And third, none of it has to define your future. None of it has to define your future. Now, does it impact your future? Absolutely. But it doesn't have to define our futures. Our futures are defined by our relationship to God and who he is and how he lives in us and through us.

And then I weak my death to give us an encouraging word, and encouraging make it to my listeners.

I'm gonna quote, I actually was scanning through this today, and I think this is um it's from my book, and then this is it's one paragraph, and I'll just read it. It says, We are surrounded by temporary things that pretend to be eternal. And the longer we live, the more we see it. A diagnosis can unravel a five-year plan, a phone call can shift your entire family's future. A market crash can erase decades of work. Doesn't mean that this world is meaningless. It just means that this world isn't the point, right? And so that's what I would say is don't let temporary things outshine the eternal things.

Amen. Well, Dustin Clank, thank you so much for coming on the show again today. We greatly appreciate having you.

Dorsey, thanks for having me. Appreciate your ministry. Thank you for the podcast and just the opportunity to share.

CTAs And Websites

Absolutely. Well, guys and girls, thank you so much for coming on the show and for listening. Please go and like and share this episode and other episodes as well. Go check out Dustin's book on Amazon. And do you have a website as well?

Yes, I do. DustinKleinschmidt.com. Good luck spelling the last name. You can Google search it. Just put a bunch of letters in there, it'll pop up. But that has all the coaching stuff. And then also um wildernesswaybook.com is a way to find it as well.

And you know, go and check out Dustin's information on his website as well. And please go and follow Oderi Audio Group on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, share review, and reach out at info at odiriaudio.org and go check out my website, www.dosyorshow.com. And until next time, God bless. Bye bye.