"Separation of Church and State: A Historical Perspective"

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello everyone, thank you again for joining me in another episode of the Dorseless show. On today's show, our guest today is filmmaker Andrew Ling and his powerful new documentary Second State, Andrew dives deep into the life of Roger Williams, the man who dared to king purity authorities and establish a colony based on true religious tolerance. Andrew, thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Yes, thank you, Dorsey,

Filmmaker Andrew Ling Joins

SPEAKER_00 0:33

for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

What inspired you to write or to make a documentary specifically about Roger Williams and the origins of the separation of church and state?

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Yeah, so I go to a Baptist church and I'd heard about Roger Williams and that he was this great Baptist, and you know, just like any character from history, there's some myths or grandiose ideas about the people from the past. So I looked into him further. He was only a Baptist briefly. He did co-found the first Baptist church in the colonies or in the Americas. So the first Baptist church is in Rhode Island, ever in this country. But he would go on later in life to become what's called a seeker, which is he stayed a Christian, but he was seeking the correct denomination.

Why Roger Williams Matters Now

SPEAKER_00 1:19

He didn't feel that there was a denomination that could fit scripture as perfectly as he would see. It didn't, uh there wasn't a denomination that fit what he thought Christianity should be, I guess you could say. So anyway, I found him to be an interesting character and an unsung hero. Not a lot of people know about Roger Williams, so I wanted to tell his story. And then, of course, the separation of church and state. Uh, we're coming up on the 250th anniversary of the United States being a country, and it's become a confused topic, and I think it's a very interesting topic, though controversial. I thought it was something that people need to know the history about, that it came from religious people, the separation of church and state. It's not an atheistic or agnostic idea, and it's not to do away with religion. It's not to punish religion, it's to protect religion. Who wants Roger Williams? Absolutely. So Roger Williams was Puritan from England. Uh, so he came uh with Puritans uh to the Massachusetts Bay colony, where a lot of Puritans escaped religious persecution and settled there. Um so he was a Puritan, he was a pastor, and he was uh political. He dealt with the leaders of the Massachusetts Bay colony. They were his friends um and colleagues, um, but they there became a divide. Um he simply for having a different opinion on things, uh the

Banishment And The Founding Of Rhode Island

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Massachusetts Bay Colony, a lot of people may not know this, was basically a Christian state, uh, a theocracy, if you will. It was a puritanical state where they controlled aspects of your life, the length of your hair, you had to go to church on Sunday if you lived there, you know, you could be banished for being too proud. So there was a lot of things going on there that Roger Williams disagreed with. Roger Williams believed in soul liberty, he believed in freedom of conscience. So he thought you can't force people to be Christian. That makes them hypocrites. They might say the right thing to authorities to avoid punishment, but that doesn't mean they've had a change of heart and become a follower of Jesus Christ. So this was the beginning of many disputes in the Massachusetts Bay colony between Roger Williams and the leaders of the colony. So they would go on to banish him for these differences of opinion. He was, in their eyes, a radical. So they kicked him out, even though initially they respected him. I think they always did respect him. However, they thought he was becoming too crazy for their colony. So they banished him, and he went on to found Rhode Island. So he's the founder of Rhode Island. He settled in Providence, established the colony, and he went back to England to get a charter for the colony. And it was the first charter, as far as we know in world history, to have the separation of church and state in the charter. So a lot of people don't know this, but the colonies and the world by and large had different, you know, in the Christian world, had a different denomination ruling over each colony or, you know, different um countries in Europe. So for instance, in Virginia, the Anglican Church was in charge and married to the government. So when you paid taxes in Virginia, they went to the Anglican church. Whether you were Anglican or not, your taxes would go to the Anglican church. So this was the first colony to say there is no denomination or Christian denomination or religion that would be married to the government or, you know, and controlling the colony. So as far as like I said, as far as we know, this is the first instance of this in world history. Right, right. So yeah, he was uh the first, like I said, as far as we know, to have the separation of church and state in the charter. He was big on freedom of religion, freedom of conscience. He believed freedom of religion even extended, which was a big deal at the time, not only to Protestants, but to Catholics. They should have freedom of religion. That was radical at the time. And he went even further. He said Jews and Muslims as well should have freedom of religion. They should have uh soul liberty. So, you know, he believed truly and I think correctly that you can't force people to be Christians. You have to convince them that you have to preach the gospel to them to become Christians, and you shouldn't incentivize them

Soul Liberty And Radical Tolerance

SPEAKER_00 5:39

or punish them via the government to become a Christian, because then it's inauthentic and you don't, you know, you don't know who's a real Christian, who's not, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah. So what you say what I'm hearing you're saying is because he was he he was radical because of his belief on separation of church and state, and that if you want to go to church, you go to church. If not, don't worry about it. But if, you know, for those who were in not not in that radicalization, they would be punished for not going to church by by the by the government or by the Yeah, that's correct.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

So yeah, throughout history, you know, in Europe and in the colonies, the church was married to the state. There'd be different denominations that were married to the state, but the Anglican church, the king was the head of the church, um, and you know, the king of England and the king of England, or the queen, whoever it would be, they were largely immoral people, you know, so it was it was ridiculous to have these people be the head of the church just because they were born into the fan the royal family, you know, and so this what the pilgrims were escaping was religious persecution. However, they started their own sort of religious persecution in that they established these new colonies where it was believe like us or be banished. They just believed differently than the Anglican Church and all these other churches in Europe. You know, there were reformers, they were Protestants, and so they were they were persecuted in in um Europe, and so they pushed out over here, and then they kind of repeated the error where they were, you know, having religious states that persecuted people who thought differently. And and an important thing for Christians, as I'm a Christian, to remember is that these people weren't, I mean, there wasn't a lot of Jews, Muslims in these areas. It was mostly Christians of different denominations, and so Christians were persecuting Christians at this time for differences of opinion about different doctrines, and so this was uh a source of contention in Europe and in the colonies, but not as much in the colonies.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

What do you think influenced Roger Williams' views on the separation of certain state?

SPEAKER_00 7:51

So he was greatly influenced by a man named Sir Edward Polk. Uh he was his mentor back in England before he immigrated here to America. And Sir Edward Polk was big on individual rights and um and things like that. So I think that and just scripture in general, I mean, all his arguments for the separation of church and state, he based on the Bible, which I heavily emphasize in the documentary, all his arguments, which are very unique and very wise, I would say. He he basically believed that the only

Biblical Case For Limited Government

SPEAKER_00 8:24

theocracy established by God was ancient Israel, and that every government since ancient Israel can only enforce the second part of the Ten Commandments, Commandments six through ten, which deal with civil law. So thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not murder, how we deal with our neighbors. But civil governments, ever since ancient Israel, cannot enforce the first part of the Ten Commandments that deal with people's relationships to God. So, you know, he he didn't believe the government should be in between a person and God and establishing relationships, you know, or destroying relationships between individuals and God.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

What do you be what do you people misunderstand most about the separation of the constate?

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Yeah, so a lot of people think uh freedom from religion is what we have in this country, that people who are Christian cannot pray in public, cannot pray if they're a politician, cannot be expressive of their religion and faith in political, the political square. Whereas the uh First Amendment says freedom of religion. It's not freedom from religion. It was established to protect religion. It wasn't established

Freedom Of Religion Misunderstood

SPEAKER_00 9:32

to banish it. And a good example of this, what freedom from religion really is, is if you go to Communist China, which is an atheistic government form of government, the Communist Party, the communist government, they do ban religion and they do stifle speech and stifle religion because it's a threat to their power, and that's not what they're interested in. Whereas here in America, and what Roger Williams established and his whole purpose as a Christian Puritan preacher was not to get rid of God and religion, it was to protect it from wolves. You know, people in government, largely the people that are in government and places of power, um, they're not the best people. Absolute power corrupts, and um, you know, so people, when they go into power, they can get corrupted or they're already corrupt because they're drawn to that kind of power. And they seek to persecute, they can persecute people of uh, you know, true sheep Christians, which was the case in Roger Williams' time. And, you know, we see that sometimes today that governments will attack faith, even in this country. But fortunately, we have the Constitution and the First Amendment to push back and you know take these things to the Supreme Court where it's you can't stifle my speech or my religion. I'm free to practice it in this country.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

And why do you think people misunderstand that or or don't understand that concept that it's not freedom, freedom of, we live in that freedom from we live in.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

I think in the public school system and in universities, people are taught and in media that you know that this is what it means. Like, uh, you know, you can just observe with history in this country and in in present life that, you know, it's not a black and white subject where yes, religion must be completely kept out of all political and public affairs. So, for instance, as far as history is concerned, when they ratified the First Amendment, Congress called the president of the United States at the time, George Washington, to have a national day of prayer and thanksgiving. So they wrote the First Amendment, freedom of religion, and then went on to have the head of the state of the whole country to pray. So it's not this clear black and white subject as it's becoming more. You know, in this day and age, I think the education system is largely responsible for teaching people and convincing people that, you know, separation of church and state means, you know, no, no religion anywhere in politics and government. And I will say this I don't I'm not pushing for a theocracy. I don't believe we are a theocracy, never were, of course not, but we are foundationally Christian in this country, meaning all cultures' laws come from come from their beliefs. So laws come from a culture's beliefs. So for instance, you know, we have laws in this country that come from the Bible, whether we like it or not. You know, uh, you know, polygamy is illegal, that's from the Bible, bestiality, cannibalism, and there are different parts of the world where these things are legal. You know, people think this is atheists will act like these are natural morals. These are not natural morals, they come from the word of God. That's why if you go to the Middle East in a Muslim country, polygamy is legal. Uh, and if you go to different tribes throughout the world, they have cannibalism. It's part of their culture. Um, so you know, these we're foundationally Christian. We're not a theocracy, but we are foundationally Christian.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Do you think that the founding fathers, do you think it was that the founding fathers founded the United States as a Christian nation?

SPEAKER_00 13:06

No, I don't think so. I believe that, you know, the founding fathers established a country where, again, foundationally Christian and in a foundationally Christian country, but they didn't establish a Christian theocracy. So, you know, and something people forget is at that time, and you know, as I mentioned earlier in world history, in the colonies, you paid your taxes, a portion of that would go to a different uh church, a denomination that ruled that colony. So what they were trying to get rid of is persecution, because that was throughout world history persecution of Christians by other Christians, Catholics persecuting Protestants, Protestants persecuting Catholics. So they just their primary goal was freedom, I think. I mean, that's why that's a big thing of American identity, right? You know, freedom. So they wanted freedom, but they didn't want freedom from religion. They were written freedom of religion. And uh there's a quote from Benjamin Franklin who said, if and he was a deist, he was not a Christian. He said, if men are so bad with religion, what would they be without religion? Something along those lines. And so, you know, they weren't against religion. They were for religion. They believed you you needed that. And also John Adams said uh the Constitution was made for moral and religious people. It's unfit for any other kind. So they believed in freedom, personal responsibility, and small, limited government.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

We mentioned earlier that many people uh today associate separation of church and state with keeping religion out of the public life. How does the film clarify what Williams and the early American early Americans understanding of the principle actually meant?

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Yeah, so um uh it there are different topics discussed, the separation of church and state, the question freedom of religion or freedom from religion is addressed in the film. Um I interviewed uh uh you know four gentlemen for the film, two of which are, well, one is a historian of American, of the American founding and the founders and the Christian roots of our country.

What The Film Clarifies Legally

SPEAKER_00 15:14

His name is Bill Federer, he's viral online right now, he's a pretty popular guy in Christian and conservative circles. And I also interviewed the president emeritus of Mercy University, who wrote a book called Separating Church and State, Roger Williams and Religious Liberty. And his book addresses the legal, uh, he brings up the legal aspects of separation of church and state, and he brings up several cases where this goes to the Supreme Court, where, for instance, uh rabbi prays at a middle school graduation. And is that wrong? Is that right? And it, you know, goes over those details. Um, and at the end of the day, uh, the Supreme Court usually mostly sides on the side of freedom of religion, therefore, people can pray in public and do different things of that nature.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Your previous film with Fearless Freddy about World War II, some arena, what drew you from military history to the chapter of the 17th century relig religious and political history?

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Uh yes, so as I mentioned before, Roger Williams is sort of an unsung hero. Uh, so is Fearless Freddy. Fearless. I'm drawn to like stories that not a lot of people know about. I don't need to rehash stories that have been told a hundred different times. I like to bring up individuals in parts of history that are, you know, fuzzy or not well known. So again, these are two unsung heroes, Roger Williams and Frederick Burdett Warder, Fearless Freddy of uh Submariner of World War II. Fearless Freddy was uh heroic, incredible man, submariner. He sank uh seven Japanese ships in World

Why Andrew Chases Unsung Heroes

SPEAKER_00 16:47

War II, um, but he also believed his enemy was his brother. So he would uh you know rise to the surface after one of his torpedo attacks to find the survivors of uh his submarine attack, and he'd toss him whiskey and life jackets. I mean, he also was a humane warrior. So for instance, he he was supposed to bomb uh the harbor, I believe it was on Christmas Island, and he didn't do that because of the natives there. He didn't want to make them suffer. He knew they relied on that port. So he was an interesting and unique man. He won the Navy Cross, I believe he had two Navy Crosses. So I just thought he was, and that's a unique story, and I like courageous men, I like telling stories of courageous men with morals and ethics, uh specifically Christian morals and ethics.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

How long did the project do you um that came out now, how long did that take from initial idea to completion? And what surprised you most during the research and production process?

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Yeah. Uh so alright, I started the one of the people I interviewed for the film was New York Times best-selling author John M. Barry. He wrote the preeminent book on Roger Williams. It's called Roger Williams and the Creation of the American Soul. It's a very in-depth read, particularly in-depth in history. The first half of it barely talks about Roger. It mainly talks about the history in England of this, you know, you know, the persecution. This is funny, but in the history in Cat Catholic hit our English history, if there was a Catholic, king, or queen, they would persecute Protestants. And then if a

Research Timeline And Where To Watch

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Protestant became Catholic, uh became king or queen, they would persecute Catholics. And so he delves into a lot of that, all the political history, the back and forth of one side persecuting the other, and how it led to the ideas that Roger Williams would establish. So I started that book. Uh, it took me a while to get through it and to finish it. Then so the whole process, I did I researched his book, Tim Hall, President Emeritus of uh Mercy University, his book that I just mentioned before about the legal side of the separation of church and state. I interviewed these gentlemen. And once I began to interview people, my first interview was John M. Barry that I just mentioned. And so about a year from interviewing him, it was about a year later, the film was complete. As I said, I interviewed four people, did a lot of research, and then it was just piecing it all together and then adding animations and different things like that. So by the grace of God, it only took about a year. Uh, the research took took longer than that. The research for the film, before production, that took uh a year or two.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

And where can people want to film now?

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Yes, so if you go to www.churchandstate.com, that's churchandstate doc.com, uh, you can find all the ways to watch it. You can watch it for free. Um, it's on YouTube right now. If you go to YouTube and type in church and state documentary, uh, it should be number one that pops up, if not top five. And again, the the full title is Church and State, Roger Williams and the founding of Freedom of Religion. Um, it's also on Fossum TV. That's spelled awesome with the F in front, Fossum.tv. And then also on redeemtv.com. And all these places you can watch it for free. Um, and 72 minutes long and filled with history, facts, and though I have my bias, of course, is everybody has a bias. Well, I may slightly push in my direction of thinking, it's all based on history, it's all facts. Um you can watch it yourself and see that uh it's not um there's nothing ahistoric like false in the film.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Is cancel culture compatible with a free society?

SPEAKER_00 20:27

No. Cancer culture is not compatible with free society. Now, I do believe that freedom of speech and freedom of association means that you can discriminate against people, meaning you can feel free not to associate with certain people. You shouldn't be punished for not wanting to do business with certain people, you shouldn't have be forced to have to do business. For instance, that old case, if you remember or familiar with, where there's a baker and he didn't want to make a cake for a gay wedding. Yeah,

Cancel Culture And A Free Society

SPEAKER_00 20:56

you shouldn't have to do anything you don't want to in our society. However, canceling people is different. So there's a difference between discrimination and canceling. And a healthy discrimination, like, you know, discriminating against people people for their race or things they can't change, but discriminating for sake of, you know, sake of, you know, your freedom your conscience. I don't want to work with this person for, you know, a litany of reasons based on their character and different things, that's okay. But when you start canceling people, that's a spiritual form of murder. As Jesus said, if you have hate in your heart, you have murdered your brother. So if you're once you start canceling people, banning them from different things, what you're saying is, I wish you weren't here in general. So what happens is just like with Roger Williams, he was banished. He was canceled. And, you know, that is not compatible with our society, our free society. And if you look again also at Charlie Kirk, you know, these people who did this, you know, they banned him for certain things. They they didn't want to hear him anymore. So they canceled him physically. So these forms of cancellation in you know, canceled off X, canceled off YouTube, these kind of things lead to real, you know, physical cancellation. And that's not how we should handle things. We should do as Charlie Kirk was trying to do and just have discussions about our differences. Doesn't mean you have to be friends with everybody and you know you have to be friendly to people who disagree with you, but it just means that you can't just go out killing people or canceling people because they have a view that makes you uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

How could Christian view um or could Christian be for or can't freedom of religion?

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Uh Christians should be for freedom of religion. And, you know, there's a rise on the woke right, um, small but growing group of people who are calling for Christian nationalism, meaning a Christian king to return. They want a theocracy in our country. That is absurd. It's anti-American, and it's it's these are likely false Christians, wolves in sheep's clothing. Um, a wolf seeks power, right? And seeks authority

Christian Nationalism And Civil Debate

SPEAKER_00 23:07

and wants to tear people to bits that they, you know. And so Christians, Jesus said, you know, you want to be the greatest in the kingdom, you know, become a servant, become low. You know, the lower we become, the the greater our glory in heaven. So these people, I believe, are wolves in sheep's clothing. And again, if you just look at the history, the reason we have freedom of religion is because Christians were killing Christians for differences of opinion. And that's an immature way to live, and it's a harsh way to live. If freedom of religion protects real sheep, the real church, which is all Roger Williams' idea that you know the church is God's garden. It is to be separate not only from government, but from the whole world, and it is guarded with a hedge around it. And if the church begins to sin, then God will break down the wall separating church and state, and the government will come in and control the church. And we don't want a government-controlled church that's you know, that's not you're not going to get true Christianity with a government-run church. You're gonna get a political organization concerned with power. So I think what we've established in this country is best fit for Christians, and there's evidence of this that you know, we've sent out more Bibles than any other country in history, sent out more missionaries than any other country in history. We've uh been more charitable than any other country in history, and I believe this is because of freedom of religion, where the true church can spring up and be truly fruitful and truly grow is in a free society. Of course, the church can grow in harsh environments like in China or Iran and the underground churches, but no, but it's you know, who would want to live under those circumstances?

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Why do you think it there is such an uprising now, like you said, and 19 online as well? The term Christian nationalist and people talking about that so much now, is it the cause of a maybe of a misunderstanding that America wasn't founded as a Christian nation or something completely different?

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Yeah, so I think it's uh I can only speculate, but I have a few different opinions about it. I believe, you know, since we've taken prayer out of public school and I believe it's the 60s and different things, you know, and got rid of blue laws and different things, which I'm not necessarily against getting rid of blue laws, but whatever. The the country by and large has been on a decline culturally and morally, right? And decade after decade, you know, less and less people identify as Christian in the United States. And real quick mention uh thing on that, as far as are we a Christian nation, depends on the metric you would you know have to address to answer that. Like uh usually it's based on a majority populace, what you would call something. So for instance, you call Japan a Japan a Buddhist country because majority are Buddhist. However, their government is not a Buddhist government, right? So I would say, you know, for that reason, another reason that we are a Christian or foundationally Christian country. We are not a theocracy. Majority of this country has been Christian since its founding. It's waning, it's down to about 60%, which is still a majority, but of people who self-identify as Christian or Catholic or whatever. So I think Christian nationalism stems from a response to the decay of our culture and society, the filth and all these kinds of things, sinful society we're living in. And they think if we just had, you know, a Christian authoritarian government that would, you know, do as they did in Massachusetts Bay Colony or in Europe in the old days and have inquisitions and punish people for different sins, they think that would resolve the issue. But I also think it's it could also be they're trying to destroy the identity of our culture on the I call them the woke right. I'm on the right, but I'm not a right person. And that's cultural Marxism. So they say that the political spectrum is like a horseshoe. So those on the woke woke right and the woke left are actually looking at each other. They're more similar than they are different. And both of them want to destroy the identity of our country for different purposes. So the left wants to destroy our heritage for this or that, tear down statues. And the woke right is tearing down, they're not tearing down physical statues, but they're tearing down the true meaning of our history, why we are the way we are, why we became this country with freedom of religion and why it's important. They want to tear these things down and re-establish a new identity, a new sort of country in their vision. Um, so I think these are, you know, so maybe they're influenced by foreign powers. Those are my speculations.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

How can we have a civil dip debate over controversial topic?

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Um Yeah, it's very challenging, uh, particularly in this day and age. People are very hostile. People are uh might be offensive, but I believe people are very uninformed, generally speaking. I think our education system is horrible, and you know, and we're seeing the fruits of that, with uh people largely not understanding what and who we are. Maybe that was planned, I don't know. But um, so we just have to, I can speak for Christians that we have to love our enemies, we have to love everybody. And I'm not good or perfect at this, so I'm not like I don't want to come off like self-righteous or something. I need to work on this, you know, loving my enemies, but because it can get contentious, and it's easy to get contentious on social media because there's nobody right in front of you. It's easy because you there's no threat of getting punched in the face or whatever. So you can be a little harsher than you would in in a real conversation. So maybe, you know, avoid too much political discussion online because we're all going to be guilty of getting too harsh, and then just love your enemy and talk, discuss things, debate things. And lastly, I'd say what James said slow to speak, quick to listen, see where they're coming from, and try to help them, try to love them into the truth, into the kingdom. But it's a it's a real test of patience, and without the Holy Spirit, it's hard to do.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Who do you hope what is this documentary and what one key takeaway do you want or to work away with?

SPEAKER_00 29:07

Yeah, so I want people to uh I so you know when you create products and films, different things, you have a dem demographic in mind. Mine was Christian conservative people because of this woke right Christian nationalism rising. Now, you know, I would usually identify myself as a Christian nationalist, but not the way they've taken the term and what they mean by it. I love my country and I'm Christian. That's simply what I thought Christian nationalism

Final Takeaways And Closing Prayers

SPEAKER_00 29:32

is or was, and it's apparently something else. So I want people to be informed about the history, why freedom of religion came about because of the persecution of Christians in supposed Christian places. And I want people to be informed and able to debate and argue and push back against this idea that we should be uh a theocracy and um, you know, help people to understand the founding better and uh to love their country. Uh it's not perfect, but it's one of the, if not the greatest country in the history of the world because of freedom. So we as Christians should be grateful for our freedom, our country, and not want to transform, deform, and destroy our foundations for, you know, things that may not be going great in our society right now. Uh it doesn't mean you have to uh throw the baby out with the bathwater kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Yeah. If Roger if if Roger Williams could walk through a documentary today, what do you think would complide him most about modern America?

SPEAKER_00 30:33

I would think he would also be upset with moral decay of our society. He may reform his ideas slightly, but not majorly. I think he would stick to his guns on the separation of church and state. A lot of people think freedom is equated to anarchy, so that, you know, if you believe in freedom, that means you can do whatever you want and whenever you want. I mean, that's not what the founders intended. Roger Williams did not intend that. He was not for chaos. He believed in government. Our founders believed in government. God established governments, they are important, and their whole purpose, according to Romans 13, is to restrain evil. That's the purpose of the government and promote good. So I think Roger Williams would think things have gotten freedom, has become this idea that I could do whatever I want whenever I want. And he was never for that. It would be akin to anarchy to him, and I think he'd be disappointed to see that, as well as the founders. Yeah, absolutely. So those things can look bleak in our society today, but depending on your perspective. I'm not a person who believes in the power of positive thinking or anything like that, but we have hope in Jesus Christ. Put your faith in him, trust him, and he gives us his peace no matter what's going on. And pray for our country, pray for our leaders, whether you hate them or love them. I prayed for Barack Obama. I'm not a Democrat. I loved Barack Obama, I love Barack Obama, I want the best for him. Pray for Donald Trump, whether you love or hate him. He needs our prayers. He's the leader of our country. We should want the best for our leaders because it trickles down to us. We don't we shouldn't want the worst. You know, stay prayed up, you know, love the Lord, follow him closely, and uh be in your Bible and go to church.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Amen. Well, Andrew Ling, thank you so much for coming on the show today and sharing about your documentary, and we'll greatly appreciate having you.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me and God bless you.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Well, guys and girls, thank you so much for coming on and for listening. And please go and check out Andrew's uh documentary. We'll have the link in the show notes, and please go and check out my website at www.dorcew.com. Please go and subscribe and know that there's a weekly episode out now, and go and share this episode as well. And until next time, God bless. Bye bye.